IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DIVISION OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
——————————————————x
REV. BILL McLEAN, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
- against -
THE STATE OF ARKANSAS, et al.,
Defendants.
——————————————————x
Deposition of DR. HILTON FAY HINDERLITER, taken by Plaintiffs pursuant to Stipulation, at the offices of
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, Esqs., 919 Third Avenue, New York, New York 10022,
on the 25th day of November, 1981, commencing at 10:10 A.M., before Paul
Goldwert, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New York.
2
APPEARANCES:
SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER, & FLOM, Esqs.
Attorneys for Plaintiffs
919 Third Avenue
New York, New York 10022
BY: STEPHEN G. WOLFE, Esq.,
Of Counsel
STEVE CLARK, Esq.
STATE OF ARKANSAS
Attorney General
Justice Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
ALSO PRESENT:
DAVID HELFAND
3
IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, by and between the attorneys for the respective parties herein that the sealing, filing and certification of the within deposition be waived; that such deposition may be signed and sworn to before any officer authorized to administer an oath, with the same force and effect as if signed and sworn to before the officer before whom said deposition was taken.
IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that all objections, except as to form, are reserved to the time of trial.
IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that counsel for the witnesses appearing herein shall be furnished with a copy of the within deposition without cost.
.o0o.
4
HILTON FAY HINDERLITER, Doctor, having first affirmed to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY
MR. WOLFE:
Q: Doctor, could you give me your name and address for the record?
A: Hilton Fay Hinderliter.
My address is ******* ***** **, Box ***, ******, Pennsylvania, *****.
MR. WOLFE: I will ask the Reporter to mark as Hinderliter Deposition Exhibit 1 a copy of Dr. Hinderliter's vita.
(Vita was marked Hinderliter's Exhibit Number 1 for Identification.)
Q: Doctor, I will show you now a copy of Exhibit 1 to a deposition, and ask you if you recognize it?
A: Yes, I recognize it.
Q: Doctor, did you provide the information on that vita?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it accurate, so far as you know?
5
A: Yes.
I compiled that in rather a hurry. I I haven't sought employment for a good many years, so I have not gone over that as a strict vita. But, as far as I know, all the information in there is accurate.
Q: Have you had any post-doctoral education or training since the time of your grant of the Ph.D.?
A: No formal training, as such.
Q: Could you tell me what the honorary physics and mathematics societies referred to are?
A: The honorary physics society is Sigma Pi Sigma.
And, the mathematics is Mu Epsilon.
And, I think, those are true. They are the standard undergraduate honor societies for math and physics.
Q: Doctor, have you had any teaching experience, other than that indicated by your position at the New Kensington campus of Penn State?
A: As a graduate student, I taught one term as a graduate assistant. I wasn't a teaching assistant
for most of my graduate work. I had a NASA traineeship. Most of the
6
students there were on assistantships, but I just taught for my own experience in teaching, not because I was doing that to earn my way through school.
Q: Doctor, did you have any sub-specialty within nuclear physics in your Ph.D. study?
A: My thesis was low-energy nuclear structure. It was using a 6M.e.V. Vandergraff accelerator. I did neutron time of flight spectroscopy, I guess you call it. It was experimental, not theoretical.
Q: Doctor, did you have graduate or undergraduate work at any institution other than Penn State?
A: No.
Q: Was your thesis published, sir?
A: My entire thesis was not, but the essentials of the thesis were published in the Journal of Nuclear Physics.
Q: Can you give me a citation to that publication?
A: I don't have it with me. It could be found in the Nuclear Science Abstracts.
Q: That was published as an article or as an abstract?
7
A: An article.
Q: Who were the authors of the article?
A: Myself and William A. Lochsted. He was my thesis advisor.
There is something else. I had publication as an abstract in the bulletin of the American Physical Society when they have their annual meetings. I presented a paper which was on my thesis work.
Q: Doctor, have you ever held, since your Ph.D., any research grants from any institution?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever applied for research grants since your Ph.D.?
A: No. Not to my knowledge — not to my recollection, I should say.
Q: Have you ever been subject to academic discipline at any institution?
A: No.
Q: Doctor, have you had any other publication since the time of your Ph.D., other than the two you have mentioned in Nuclear Physics and the Abstract of the Bulletin of the American Physical Society?
A: I had articles published in the Creation Research Society
Quarterly, the things that were included
8
in my documents that I submitted here today.
Q: Are there any other publications that you have made in addition to those that you provided in the documents production?
A: Not in any sense in which you define a publication.
I have written letters, but I don't think you mean that by a "publication".
Q: I am thinking of a paper or abstract, or the like, published in a periodical.
A: Not that I can think of.
Q: So, there have been none, other than those which you have produced to us today?
A: To the best I can remember, that is the truth — I am sorry.
In a science teaching journal, I did something. It was in connection with the Chautauqua short course
I attended. They were sponsored by the American Science Foundation. Part of that project was doing
— there were two meetings in the course. There was one meeting and you did an interim project, and
there was a second meeting. I had the results of my project published — I can't remember the name of
the journal. I have a copy
9
of it. It was in around 1974. It dealt with an approach to teaching science to non-science majors. It was my own kind of innovative course.
Q: Do you know if the journal you referred to was a refereed journal?
A: I don't know. You mean, somebody obviously read the paper.
To my knowledge, it was not sent to some person who criticized it and sent it back to me. It was not a creation-oriented publication at all.
Q: Sir, for how long have you been an assistant professor at Penn State?
A: This is my thirteenth year. Technically, I was an instructor for my first year there, and the second year, I was promoted to Assistant Professor. So, that would make it twelve years as Assistant Professor.
Q: When did you receive tenure there?
A: I started teaching there in 1969, in the
10
fall, and tenure is technically granted after the end of the seventh year. They have to give you a year's notice. So, they have to tell you at the end of the sixth year when you are accepted for tenure.
In 1975, I was notified that I received tenure.
Q: Sir, could you describe the responsibilities of your position as Assistant Professor at Penn State?
A: My primary job is teaching undergraduate physics, both calculus and non-calculus; sophomore physics is usually the way you would designate it. As a part of the role of a faculty member, there is some evaluation based on publishing, scholarship, community service. These are things involved to certain degrees with the job. The primary responsibility is teaching.
Q: Sir, do you teach any graduate courses?
A: No.
Q: Does the New Kensington campus grant graduate degrees in physics?
A: The campus does not. It is part of the university system, which does, of course.
Q: Are there graduate physics students at
11
the New Kensington campus?
A: None, to my knowledge.
It's not the standard. Conceivably, somebody, as a graduate student, could take a course in something, but I don't know of any being there.
Q: Have you supervised the research of graduate students while you were at Penn State?
A: No.
Q: Doctor, have you ever been considered for promotion to full professor at Penn State?
A: The next level up is Associate Professor. I was considered for promotion. There was a dossier sent in. I don't know how many years ago. That was denied.
I was told it was denied primarily because I had not published in accepted scientific periodicals.
Q: Sir, you said this was four or five years ago?
A: I think so.
Q: Was the explanation that you just mentioned of why promotion was denied for failure to publish in accepted periodicals, did that come to you in a letter?
A: No. There was, at that time, no official
12
statement as to why the promotion decision was denied.
Q: Could you tell me by whom you were given that explanation?
A: Yes. That was communicated to me by the departmental liaison person between the main campus and our campus.
I think it was also explained to me by the local administration; that is, our director, or associate director.
Q: Sir, have you ever been considered for promotion since that first occasion?
A: No. I was pretty much told that, if I didn't have such publications, as I explained a minute ago, that there was no use in applying for promotion.
Q: Sir, at the time of this promotion consideration, what publications had you made?
A: My thesis results were published in that article I mentioned about the science teaching journal. I don't think any of the publications that I gave, you in that extra folder had been made by that time.
Q: So, this was either in 1976 or 1977, is
13
that correct, so far as you recall?
A: Yes.
Q: At that time, your publications had been your thesis results in Nuclear Physics and an abstract also on your thesis work in the Bulletin of the American Physical Society and an article in the journal whose name we don't know, about the results of this NSH short course?
A: Yes.
Q: Were there, in addition to those three?
A: No other publications that I recall.
Q: Doctor, have you engaged in any research since the completion of your Ph.D. research?
A: It depends what you mean by "research".
Q: Sir, as you define "research," have you been engaged in any, and could you describe it for me?
A: Yes. One has to do with solar contraction. That was addressed in some of the articles I gave
you. Another I have done, I guess you call it personal research. It was not financed by anyone, but I
had theorized on the gravitational force and trying to come up with a model for what the gravitation could
be, explained by or due to; make those two major areas
14
as research. In addition, anything I have written about creation, evolution.
Q: Sir, could you describe the research process that you are using in your work on solar contraction?
A: I have done a good bit of library research, looking up articles.
I had written to other scientists in other areas asking for information, or having them critique the things I have written.
I had worked my gravity model to the point of making predictions that could refine or refute my theory.
Solar contraction, of course, I had — after I had studied the subject and went back over the things I had been taught as concerns the sun's supposed mechanism for generating energy, I suggested to at least one other person that it would be positive to check in and see if there might be any evidence for solar contraction.
At the time, I knew of no such evidence. Within the following year, there was material published in
the officially recognized scientific
15
literature that supposedly supported such contraction.
Q: Could you explain what you meant in your last answer by "supposedly supported such contraction"?
A: John Eddy published data that claimed to show that the sun was contracting. Other people have published other data that supposedly — that they said denied that the sun was contracting.
He was saying supposedly was contracting as Eddy's conclusion drawn from his own data. In other words, I am not claiming it is a known fact that the sun is contracting.
Q: Is the research process that you have engaged in — I think you mentioned library research, letters and communication with other scientists, and you mentioned this prediction of the possibility of solar contraction, is that process any different in your work in modeling the gravitational force?
A: In there, I have made some predictions, but there has not been any data verifying or not verifying the predictions.
Otherwise, I think they are pretty much the same.
16
Q: Sir, have you performed any experiments or made any experimental observations in your work in either solar contraction or gravitational force?
A: I have done no direct experimental work. I have no means to do that, either finances or equipment.
For example, I don't have an observatory. I don't have access to telescopes where I could get data from the size of the sun, for example.
Q: Sir, have you ever made a grant application for funding or equipment for observations or experiments in either of these areas?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Have you ever investigated the possibility of being a guest scientist or visiting professor at a facility where you would have access to an observatory or other facilities for such research?
A: No. I never thought of that.
Q: Doctor, are you aware of any observatories or facilities owned by the Federal Government which are available to scientists, without charge?
A: No. I have never thought about that. Personally, I would say there are people who are more
qualified to do astronomical observations
17
than I am qualified to operate telescopes or whatever.
Q: Doctor, could you tell me the undergraduate and graduate course work you have done that you regard as relevant to your work in solar contraction?
A: I had basic physics courses, quite a few math courses. I took a 400-level course in solar physics, which, as I look back upon it, it motivated me to study the subject of solar contraction.
Q: Sir, when you say "400-level," that indicates a graduate-level course?
A: 400-level is upper-class, not necessarily graduate. I think it's junior and senior.
Q: Did you have any other course work in solar physics or astrophysics or related areas?
A: None that I can remember.
Q: Doctor, have you ever had any articles submitted for publication which were rejected?
A: None that I can remember, no.
Q: Sir, are you a member of any professional associations?
A: I am a member of the Creation Research Society. That's the only one.
Q: When did you become a member of the
18
Creation Research Society?
A: I don't really know. It has not been within the last two years.
Q: So, you are saying at least two years? And, you are not sure how much longer?
A: At least five years.
Q: Are you a member of the Creation Science Research Center?
A: No.
Q: Are you a member of the Bible Science Association?
A: I receive their newsletter, but I don't know that they have any membership.
Q: Are you a member of Citizens for Fairness in Education?
A: No.
Q: Are you a member of the American Scientific Affiliation?
A: No.
Q: Are you a member of the Moral Majority?
A: No.
Q: Are you a member of any Right To Life organizations?
19
A: No.
Q: Are you a church member, Doctor?
A: Not in the sense of being on any membership roll.
Q: Do you attend church, sir?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you say what church you attend?
A: It's Pine Run Evangelical and Reformed Church. It's a RD rural route from Apollo, Pennsylvania.
Q: Sir, is the Pine Run Church affiliated with any larger organization, or council of churches?
A: No, it is not.
Q: Are you able to describe the denomination of the Pine Run Church?
A: It is not part of a denomination. It is an independent church.
Q: Sir, have you any understanding of the term "fundamentalist" with respect to religion?
A: I have heard the term, but — do I have any understanding?
I maybe understand some ways in which some people use it.
Q: Do you have a definition, yourself, that you use for the term?
20
A: No.
Q: Do you consider yourself a fundamentalist as to religion?
A: You would have to define what that term is, before I could answer.
Q: Do you consider yourself a fundamentalist?
A: If I had no definition of what a fundamentalist is, there is no way I could tell you if I consider myself to be one.
Q: Do you attend the Pine Run Church regularly?
A: You would have to say what is meant by regularly?
Q: Are you able to estimate how often, on a monthly or annual basis, you attend the Church?
A: Recently, I would say, about once every two weeks.
Q: Are you an officer in the Church?
A: No.
Q: Do you belong to any groups, Bible classes, or study classes in the Church?
A: No.
Q: How long have you been a member of the Pine Run Church?
21
A: I said I am not a member of any church.
Q: How long have you attended the Pine Run Church?
A: Since about last Easter.
Q: Did you attend another church prior to attending the Pine Run Church?
A: Yes.
Q: What church was that?
A: Church of God, Franklin Avenue, Vandergrift, Pennsylvania.
Q: Have you ever been a church member of any other church?
A: Not since I was in high school, I think.
Q: What church was that that you were a member of
A: It was the Evangelical United Brethren Church in Hawthorn, Pennsylvania.
Q: Sir, what was the occasion for your ceasing attendance at the Church of God, and beginning to attend the Pine Run Church?
A: The Church of God was part of a national movement which originated approximately
one-hundred years ago, and it was based on certain beliefs. I mean, this movement started a hundred
22
years ago.
I came to the conclusion that the present constituency of the movement was not consistent with the principles for which it was started. So, I could not, in good conscience, identify with the movement.
Q: Are you able to describe the aspects of the movement that you could not identify with or subscribe to?
A: Yes. Basically, the pioneers of this movement, and they referred to themselves as "pioneers," propagated the idea that denominationism was not their position. They felt it was not wise or whatever to have the Church organized as a hierarchy, but the movement, in the course of one-hundred years, developed its own hierarchy.
So that was my main objection.
Q: Were there other objections, in addition?
A: I had personal qualms about some of the activities of the pastor of that particular church. I
assume this is to be not — I do not want to make public an attack on that pastor.
23
I mean, whatever information I give, is not to be made public, I assume.
Q: I do not know if the text of the deposition may be publicly available.
I am not urging you to put on record anything about your personal disagreement with the pastor of the church.
Are there any other matters that had to do with the change in church attendance that do not touch upon that, that you would like to add to the record?
A: No.
Q: Doctor, have you ever read the Bible?
A: You mean read the entire Bible?
Q: Do you ever read any portion of the Bible?
A: Yes.
Q: What versions have you read, or trans lation?
A: I have read the King James Version. I have read the New English Bible, Amplified Bible, New
American Standard Version. I have read from The Living Bible and Good News For Modern Man.
24
Did I mention the Phillip's translation? Those are the ones I can remember.
Q: Are you able to say about how often you read the Bible?
A: No, because I am not — I follow no consistent schedule in reading the Bible. I read it to what extent and as often as I feel motivated to read it.
Q: As a physicist, do you ever consult the Bible?
MR. CLARK: Are you asking if he consults the Bible for purposes of science?
Q: Did you ever consult the Bible in your either study or research as a physicist?
A: Not generally.
I think there was a statement made in one of those articles about the sun and the sun's nature.
I think I referred to biblical statements as to what the sun might or might not do in the future.
I did not present that as any scientific evidence. It was just as a point of interest. I have never
presented any scientific
25
argument based on the Bible says this; therefore, it must be true.
Q: Doctor, do you recall any other instance when you have used the Bible in any way in your work as a scientist?
A: Put in those terms, no, not to my recollection.
Q: Doctor, do you believe that the Bible is inerrant?
A: Could you explain what you mean by "inerrant"?
That it is correct and contains no errors. I would say that I have no knowledge of containing errors.
I do not necessarily advance any such inerrancy as a religious faith.
Q: Do you believe that the Bible is literally true?
A: Again, it depends on what you mean by that.
There are statements in the Bible that, by their own context, are shown to be not to be literal
statements or to be taken literally. And, in that sense, I would answer the
26
question no.
Q: Could you describe an instance of what you just mentioned; that is, portions of the Bible which are not intended to be taken literally?
A: Some visions in the Book of Revelation. I think within themselves, they are not referring to literal events, but their purpose is to be symbolic.
Q: Do you believe that the account of creation in Genesis is literally true?
A: I find no reason to deny its credibility but I do not — again, that's not tenets of my religious faith that everything said in Genesis is literally true. I may feel it's true, but I do not consider that as an essential of Christian belief.
(Continued on the next page.)
27
Q: Is it your opinion that the Genesis account of creation is literally true?
A: That is my opinion in the sense that I have no factual knowledge showing that would not be true.
In one of the publications I had there, I made an analogy with conservation of momentum, and I believed conservation of linear momentum to be true in the sense that I know of no scientific data that would disprove it.
So, I believe in conservation momentum and analogously I believe in the Genesis account of creation.
Q: Doctor, did you subscribe to a statement of principle or statement of belief when you joined the Creation Research Society?
A: I believe I did, yes.
Q: Doctor, do you recall if one of the portions of that statement of belief is a statement as to belief in the scientific accuracy and literal truth of the Genesis account?
A: I don't remember exactly how it was worded.
MR. WOLFE: Off the record.
28
(Discussion off the record)
Q: Doctor, I will read to you numbered Paragraph 1 from the application form for the Creation Research Society.
The application states that all members must subscribe to the following, numbered Paragraph 1: "The Bible is written of God's action and because we believe it to be inspired throughout, all of its assertions are historically and scientifically true in all of the original autographs. To the student of nature, this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of simple historical truths. First, Doctor, do you recall having subscribed to the statement of belief that contained essentially that language?
A: Could you let me see the copy you have there?
Q: Sure.
(Submitting)
A: I don't remember exactly what the thing said, but that does look familiar.
Q: Looking at that numbered Paragraph 1 on the copy I have given you, would you be willing to
29
subscribe to that statement now?
A: Yes.
Q: Sir, could you tell me your understanding of the phrase "original autographs" as used in that statement?
A: My understanding of it, I believe it to whatever manuscripts now exist. They are not the original manuscripts. The originals do not exist, to my knowledge, but copies of those have been studied and through the process of time, I think they have gotten more and more information bearing on the original manuscripts.
Q: Could you tell me what you understand by the statement that "The Bible is inspired throughout"?
A: I would say it would mean that certain statements made in the Bible were the result of revelation.
Q: Could you tell me what you mean by "revelation"?
A: Communication through the writer by God.
Q: Doctor, do you regard the Bible as a source of scientific knowledge?
A: It depends on your definition of the word "scientific".
30
There are things in the Bible that would fit in various categories of scientific knowledge, such as measurements, statements of things, the way things normally happen.
Q: Would you regard the biblical account of the creation as scientific evidence?
A: I think that would depend on your definition of "scientific evidence".
Q: Could you tell me what understanding you have of the phrase "scientific evidence" and using that understanding of your definition, tell me your view as to whether the biblical creation account consists of scientific evidence.
A: I don't think there is any generally agreed upon definition of what scientific evidence is, and I do not think there is any agreed definition of what science is.
By generally accepted standards, I would state that the Genesis account would not be considered scientific evidence.
Q: Why is that, sir?
A: I don't know if I can say why. I would just make that statement based on various things I have
read, people who were speaking
31
as scientists saying that the Genesis account was not scientific evidence.
Q: Is it your view that the Genesis account is scientific evidence?
A: I don't think I can answer that because it would depend on what the definition of "scientific evidence" is, and I don't necessarily have a settled opinion on what scientific evidence is, myself.
Q: Do you have a current opinion or view as to what scientific evidence is, that you are able to describe for us?
A: Not really, because, in the definition of "science," for example, if you look in a dictionary, there are several definitions, and they are different. One is just the search for knowledge. Certainly, in the sense of anything that would aid the search for knowledge, then the Bible would be scientific knowledge.
In another sense, science is defined as that knowledge gained by repeatable observations. Genesis would not be scientific because the things that are recorded in Genesis do not purport to be repeatable.
I think one definition of science is as
32
good as another. It's a matter of what the person — in what context that term "science" is discussed.
Q: Doctor, has the Bible ever suggested a specific project or research interest to you?
A: Yes, it has.
Q: Could you describe that instance, sir?
A: One thing it suggested as a research project would be to use a metal detector to find evidence of Pharaoh's army drowned in the Red Sea.
Q: Are you aware of any work that has been done in that area?
A: No. I am not even aware of what Pharaoh's chariots might have been made of.
Q: Do you recall any other instances?
A: Off the top of my head, no, I don't.
Q: Do you recall any instance when the Bible, or reading the Bible suggested a specific method of investigation to you?
A: No, I don't recall any.
Q: Do you recall any instance when your reading the Bible suggested the solution or a possible
solution to a particular research question or problem?
33
A: No, I don't.
Q: Doctor, how did you first hear about this legal action challenging the Arkansas statute?
A: I think the first I heard of it was a phone call I received from Tim Humphreys from the Attorney General's Office.
Q: Do you recall when that was, sir?
A: It was about the end of last month. I think the phone call would have been made around the 25th. I am not sure. He verified the phone call with a letter and I think the letter was dated October 27th.
Q: Had you heard about the Arkansas statute that is at issue here prior, to that time?
A: I may have just read about it in passing. I never paid any particular attention to it.
Q: When did you first see a copy of the Arkansas statute that is in question here?
A: When Tim Humphreys sent me the letter verifying his phone call.
Q: Had you ever seen a text of the model statute providing for the teaching of creationism in
public schools?
34
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Had you ever discussed this case or the Arkansas statute with anyone prior to the phone call from Mr. Humphreys?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever had any contact concerning this case or the Arkansas statute with Wendell Byrd or John Whitehead?
A: Not prior to my being contacted by the Attorney General's Office.
Q: Have you had any contact with either of those gentlemen since?
A: I never heard of Mr. Whitehead before. I had sent a letter to Wendell Byrd after I heard about this. I think I just asked what he knew what was going on because I didn't know.
Q: Did you receive any reply from Mr. Byrd?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Doctor, have you ever given testimony before this occasion in a previous court action or deposition?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever given testimony before a
35
legislative or administrative body?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever testified or made a statement to a school board on any subject?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever participated in debates or made any speeches or public appearances on the subject of creation or evolution?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me in what occasions?
A: I never held any debates. I am pretty sure that is true in any context. I have spoken to some high school classes. Some of the documents I gave you refer to that.
One was a letter from a high school teacher. It was his evaluation of what I had presented. I don't remember if I remember everything in the question.
Q: Do you recall any other occasions, other than these talks to high school classes, when you
discussed creation-science or evolution-science with public
36
groups?
A: I have spoken to some church groups and I conducted a course at a Christian liberal arts college in Dayton, Pennsylvania.
Q: What was the name of that college in Dayton?
A: Cornerstone.
Q: Do you recall when that was?
A: I am not sure. It would have been, maybe, four years ago.
Q: Was that a course within the curriculum or a seminar?
A: That college is just starting up, and they have no — at that time, at least, they had no fixed curriculum.
It was a course about philosophy — something to do with Christianity and science.
Q: Do you recall any other public presentations you have given about creation-science or evolution-science?
A: I spoke to the Westmoreland County Intermediate Unit at their invitation.
Q: Could you tell me what the Westmoreland
37
County Intermediate Unit is?
A: I am not sure exactly what it is, but, to my knowledge, it is a county branch of the State Department of Education, dealing with high schools and school districts.
They had teachers from each of the school districts invited once a month, and they have speakers come in and give presentations.
Q: Sir, I think you have said the Intermediate Unit had invited you to speak?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall when that was?
A: It was either this past spring or the year before. I am very absentminded about things. I think it was this past spring.
Q: Do you know if there is a transcript extant of the presentation that you made to the Intermediate Unit?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Did you make any notes or write down the text of your presentation?
A: I didn't write out the text. I had some scribbled notes to remind myself of certain topics.
Q: Do you know if you still have those notes?
38
A: I am not sure.
Q: Doctor, have you ever had any criminal arrests or convictions?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall the substance of the phone call that you had from Mr. Humphreys approximately on the 25th of October?
A: I can remember some things, but I am not sure I can remember everything in detail.
Q: Can you tell me what you recall about that conversation?
MR. CLARK: I want to object just for the purpose of trying to get a clarification as to what you are seeking.
If you are seeking information exchanged between an attorney and his client, you are not entitled to that.
MR. WOLFE: Is it your position that the Arkansas Attorney General is representing Dr. Hinderliter in his individual capacity?
MR. CLARK: We are not representing him in his individual capacity, but he is a witness for us in
this potential lawsuit, and communications that were had between Dr. Hinderliter and
39
members of the Attorney General's staff as to strategy for the case, or as to specific conversations as to directions he may have received from the Attorney General's staff, I think, are privileged.
MR. WOLFE: You are asserting that they are covered by the attorney/client privilege, or work product privilege?
MR. CLARK: Work product, actually. If I had an idea of what information you were seeking, maybe I would not assert that privilege.
But, it is part and parcel of our work product at this time.
MR. WOLFE: I guess, essentially, what I want to know is the substance of Dr. Hinderliter's expected testimony.
MR. CLARK: That we have given you to the extent that we have indicated he is a physicist and he
would offer evidence showing the scientific proofs supporting creation-science. If you want to ask him as to
a conversation between Mr. Humphreys of my staff and
40
himself, I am not sure you do have the right to inquire, at least under the work product privilege. If you want to ask him about his research or opinion, feel free.
MR. WOLFE: I certainly do want to do that. Given that Dr. Hinderliter is an expert witness, and given that the work product doctrine is not absolute, and I think there are probably things that might be covered by the work product doctrine that we are entitled to inquire into as to expert witnesses, I think probably it sounds as though, to me, that we have essentially the same view as to what I am entitled to ask. So, my proposal would be that I proceed and, on instances when you think I have asked an improper question, perhaps, Doctor, do not respond instantly but give a moment or two for
MR. Clark to state when he believes I have asked an improper question covered by the work product privilege.
MR. CLARK: That is fair.
Q: Doctor, have you ever discussed with a
41
representative of the Arkansas Attorney General the expected substance of the testimony that you will give in this case?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me when that was?
A: Yesterday.
(Continued on the next page.)
42
Q: Had you discussed the subject of your expected testimony on any prior occasion?
A: No.
Q: Sir, are you being paid to give testimony in this action?
A: No.
Q: Are you being reimbursed for your expenses in giving testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know by whom your expenses are being reimbursed?
A: By the Attorney General's Office, I believe.
Q: Have you discussed the subject matter of your expected testimony with anyone other than representatives of the Attorney General's Office?
A: No.
Q: Sir, could you tell me what areas you expect to give testimony in at trial?
A: To as much as I can recall, the information I was given yesterday.
Q: Would you describe that, sir?
A: I believe you made a statement that pretty well covered that.
Let him read that statement again.
43
That's the substance of it.
MR. CLARK: Scientific proofs supporting creation-science.
Q: Are there any specific scientific proofs about which you expect to personally testify?
A: I can't say as yet that I know of any particular ones. You want me to conjecture things that I might testify on?
Q: Let me put the question in another way. What specific scientific proofs supporting creation-science do you consider yourself qualified to give testimony on?
A: Actually, my personal opinion is that there is no such thing as a scientific proof. Does that contradict something? Science cannot technically prove anything, as per scientific writers,
Q: Would you feel comfortable in terms of the scientific evidence for the proof of the account of Genesis creation in which you consider, yourself qualified?
A: Yes, I would be.
Q: Could you tell me as to what scientific evidence for the accuracy of the Genesis account of
44
creation you consider yourself qualified to testify about?
A: I don't know that Genesis — it's not only a matter of scientific evidence bearing on the Genesis account. It's a matter of scientific evidence bearing on evolutionary accounts. In my opinion, evidence that contradicts evolution is evidence for creation.
Q: Could we try taking them one at a time? I guess, first, are you able to distinguish in your mind between scientific evidence which is support for creation-science and the scientific evidence which calls into question the accuracy of evolution-science?
A: Am I able to distinguish between those two?
Q: Yes.
A: I never really thought much about that. I can't think of any distinction.
Q: Given as to either scientific evidence which supports creation-science, and by "creation- science" now,
I mean something more general than the Genesis account.
45
Let's say creation-science as described in the Arkansas statute, or as to scientific evidence which calls into question the evolution-science model, what areas do you regard yourself qualified to give testimony in?
A: I think it would be the philosophy of science area, which would be my best area.
Q: Are there any other areas in which you regard yourself as qualified to give testimony?
A: I could be qualified from the standpoint of nuclear physics to make some statements about radioactive decay processes and radioactivity.
Q: Are there any others?
A: I can't think of anything.
Q: How would you regard your publications in the Creation Research Society Quarterly — under which of these two areas would you regard your articles in the Creation Research Society Quarterly as being encompassed?
A: The philosophy of science area.
Q: Doctor, have you an understanding or a definition that you use for the phrase "creation- science"?
A: Personally, I don't.
46
I could refer to an Impact article or a series of Impact articles from the Institute of Creation Research.
I think they were Impacts 95 and 96. I think creation-science is defined therein. As best I can recollect, I have no objection to that definition.
Q: Doctor, are you familiar with the definition of "creation-science" which is given in Act 590?
A: I have read Act 590.
Q: Do you recall whether you would agree or disagree with any portions of that definition?
A: I can make a comment, at least one comment on that. That is, under this Act 590, Section 4,
"Definitions," Items 5 and 6, I do not consider to be a necessary aspect of creation-science; that is, the idea of
a world-wide flood and a relatively recent inception of the earth. I do not consider that essential to
a creation model. I think they are justified. If that's the definition to be used in this Act, I find no objec-
47
tion to that. But, I, personally, do not think a creation model need incorporate any statement about a world-wide flood or the recent age of the earth and living kinds.
Q: Doctor, is it your own belief that the present evidence supports those two items?
A: On Item 5, I would, from what I do know, and I do not claim to be an expert on geology, but I am of the personal opinion that there is evidence of a world-wide flood. On the age of the earth, I think the evidence is no more indicative of an age in the billions of years that it is for an age in the tens of thousands of years.
It just depends on what assumptions you make when you are trying to calculate the age of the earth In other words, I think, on Item 6, about the age of the earth, I don't think you can prove the earth is old or you can prove the earth is young. So, as far as I am concerned, I would say that is a toss-up.
Maybe, I lean toward the young ages for
48
my own personal conclusions.
Q: Doctor, referring to Subsection A of Section F, it has six numbered items which gives as inclusions or instances of creation-science, and in Subsection B, there are six numbered items, apparently inclusions or instances of evolution-science which appear to be counterparts of one another.
As to the two pairs, Numbers 5 and 6, do you regard one member or one of those two pairs as better supported by the current scientific evidence than the other?
MR. CLARK: I am not sure I understand the question.
Are you asking if 5 and 6, under the definition of creation-science, and 5 and 6, under the definition of evolution-science, among those pairs, does scientific evidence support one or the other?
MR. WOLFE: Yes. Does he regard one or the other of each pair better supported by the scientific evidence.
A: Yes. I would have to say especially in Number 5, I do.
49
I could quote from that — I don't have the reference, but I believe it was Steven J. Gould who had an article on catastrophes and stated that the earth's geology cannot be explained by uniformitarianism but might require catastrophism. So, I might say Item 5, the creation view, is more supported by the evidence.
Q: As to the pair numbered 6?
A: I wouldn't say I would necessarily judge one more supported than the other.
Q: Doctor, would you say your opinion of which of the two items numbered 6 is better supported by the scientific evidence has changed any in the past five years?
A: Yes.
Q: In what way?
A: You said the last five years?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't know about the last five years. In the last fifteen years, it has.
Q: Let's take the last fifteen. Can you describe what changes, in your view on that question, have
taken place in the last fifteen years?
50
A: In my education, whatever courses I had dealing with the age of the earth and the age of the universe, it was generally stated that the universe was billions of years old, and I accepted that. But, upon further study, I don't see any particular reason to accept that as known.
Q: Fifteen years ago, you would have said. that the scientific evidence better supported the age of billions of years. And, now, you say the evidence is neither more supportive of one notion than the other?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you describe what has caused the change in your view over the past fifteen years?
A: I guess I have looked at the supposed proofs of the age of the universe and found that there are
many ways of calculating the age of the universe. Of those ways, only a few, or, at least only some gave ages
in the billions of years. There are other dating methods that give ages that are much more shorter. I
was only informed of the ones that give billions of years ages in my early education, so that is why I
accepted the statement that it was known
51
that the universe was billions of years old. Now that I know there are kinds that give different ages, I see no reason to believe that the earth is necessarily billions of years old.
Q: Can you tell me what methods you are thinking of that gives ages in the billions of years?
A: Radiometric dating, radioactive dating.
Q: Are there any others?
A: I know of some that have been argued as grounds for billions of years ages, such as supposed distances to the stars being billions of light years, but I do not consider those to be — maybe I should say those arguments and dating methods are based on a number of other assumptions which are not testable, not provable.
Q: When you say those dating methods, do you mean the radiometric methods and the notion, of the distance to the stars, or both of them?
A: Both of them.
They both involve unprovable assumptions.
Q: Do you have any other way of calculating the age of the universe that results in billions of
52
years, in addition to the ones you have referred to?
A: Offhand, I don't know of any. There may be other methods that people have advanced, but I would not consider them convincing proof.
Q: Could you tell me now of any other methods that you are aware of as you sit here today?
A: I have heard of methods involving the rate of flow of different chemicals into the oceans. Some
give ages in the millions of years and some give ages in the thousands of years. So, there are some of
each. (Continued on the next page.)
53
Q: Sir, can you tell me about the ways of calculating age that do not give ages in the billions of years that you are aware of?
A: You want me to describe some?
Q: Please.
A: One would be the scientific evidence bearing on the short period comets, the lifetime of the short period comets; namely, the short period comets revolve in their orbits around the sun and they decrease in luminosity. If one were to extrapolate backwards in time, the rate at which they decrease in luminosity, then any age of the solar system in excess of an age in the order of tens of thousands of years would presuppose that those comets were, at that time, at their earlier times, not — that it is inconceivable that those comets would have had such a nature at such an earlier time.
In other words, they might have been as bright as the sun, for example.
Q: Are there any other methods?
A: I feel there are.
I don't know, that I can quote specific ones. I didn't bring long-hand notes of lists of
54
dating methods, or anything.
Q: Sir, do you consider yourself qualified to give testimony at trial as to any methods for calculating the age of the earth or the age of the universe?
A: Yes.
Q: Which methods, sir?
A: I could speak to the radioactive dating methods, pointing out the assumptions put into them. Perhaps, any other ones that deal with knowledge of physics.
Q: Can you recall what any others which deal with the knowledge of physics might be?
A: One would be the decay of comets.
Q: Are there any others?
A: I can't think of any other particular ones right now.
Q: Doctor, given your awareness of the various evidence and the methods for calculating an age for the earth, do you have a view as to what the age of the earth is, based on all of the presently available evidence?
A: From a scientific standpoint, I have no reason to believe the earth is — I have no more reason
to believe that the earth is on the order of thousands
55
of years than I have to believe it is on the order of millions of years.
Q: Does that mean that you do not have an opinion one way or the other? I am not certain I understand you.
A: Yes, right.
I do not feel there is convincing scientific evidence to judge in favor of one or the other.
Q: Is there any range for the age of the earth which you feel that scientific evidence is able to eliminate as a possibility?
A: I don't know if you want to get into philosophy of second-agoers.
From a philosophical standpoint, you cannot prove that the earth was not created five seconds ago, and we have our memory.
That's from a philosophical standpoint. I don't particularly go with that and believe we were created five seconds ago, or anything. I would say, as far as science and history is concerned, I think there is evidence, whether it is scientific evidence or not, that the earth is at least six-thousand years old.
Q: My inquiry was simply whether you
56
believe the evidence supports any limits, and I would be happy to hear that.
A: I believe the earth is at least six- thousand years old, but not based particularly on scientific evidence.
It is based more on historical evidence. I don't think the subject of science can speak to what happened in the past. There is no way to know.
There is no observers before whom history was written, and I question a lot of the assumptions that are made in calculating ages.
Q: Do you believe that scientific evidence sets any upper limit for the age of the earth?
A: No.
Q: Do you know that there is any other evidence relevant to the question of upper or lower limits for the earth's age?
A: I believe there is historical evidence that the earth is at least a certain number of years. It is
whatever thousands of years are recorded in history. I do not necessarily accept all the chronologies that
are calculated for — like some
57
civilizations, if it was stated that that civilization existed 10,000 B.C., I might question the dating methods as to how that date was ascertained.
Q: Doctor, do you have in mind any particular historical evidence which you do regard as valid or worthy of belief?
A: On the age question?
Q: Yes sir.
A: In the sense of being authoritative, no.
There is historical evidence of many kinds, and I do not have reason to single any one.
Q: Are there any other kinds of evidence, other than scientific or historical, that you think are relevant to the question of the earth's age?
A: I guess none that I would single out.
MR. CLARK: Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) (Short recess taken.)
Q: Doctor, what do you expect to testify about in the area of philosophy of science?
A: I think one area would he as to whether it is scientific to consider the possibility of
supernatural events.
58
Q: Is there any other area?
A: I would say general logic or illogic employed in textbook expositions on evolution.
Q: Any others?
A: Those are the only ones I can think of now.
Q: What would you expect to testify about concerning whether or not it is scientific to consider the plausibility of supernatural events?
A: I think I would show, for one thing, it is not a necessary requirement of science in the context of science being taught in public schools and supported by Government agencies, it's not a necessary assumption of science that the possibility of supernatural events be excluded.
Q: Am I correct that you believe that it is scientific to consider the plausibility of supernatural events?
A: Certainly, within the definition of science as implicit in the Act 590.
Q: Sir, would you say that it is a generally accepted definition of science that supernatural events are included?
A: I cannot say that it is generally
59
accepted, no.
Q: Then, would you say that the generally accepted definition of science excludes the possibility of supernatural events?
A: I couldn't really say, but I don't know what the generally accepted view of science is. I have never seen it stated as such.
Q: Do you have any awareness or knowledge about what a generally accepted definition of science is?
A: No, I don't know of any generally accepted definition of science. I have even heard it said that science is what scientists do, considering that the question is what is science. There are people in the profession, not creationists who acknowledge that there is no generally accepted — well, there are people who admit that there is a problem with the definition of science and that's not exactly what I said before, but I think that's the idea.
Q: Doctor, have you had any course work in the philosophy of science?
A: None that I can remember.
60
Q: Have you done any reading in the philosophy of science?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me some of the things that you have read?
A: I have had some exposure to a book by Thomas Kuhn, and I believe the title was The Nature of Scientific Revolutions.
Q: Do you recall any others?
A: None that I could cite by reference. I have read a number of things over the years.
There was one NSFS Chautauqua-type short course, where I read about the philosophy of science. I wrote to the director of that course and asked for materials.
I don't remember specifically what they were. That was one thing where I can remember I sought some materials on the philosophy of science.
Q: Do you recall any other authors whose work you have read about the philosophy of science?
A: I can't recall any now.
Q: Would you recognize any authorities
61
or important workers on the philosophy of science? And, if so, who would they be?
A: I don't know that I would be knowledgeable on who I would consider to be an authority.
I could quote on the former question. I have thought of another philosopher. Carl Popper. And, I have read some of his statements that he made on some discussion relative to those statements.
Q: Were the things of Popper's you have read in things or articles by him or other materials that refer to his work?
A: Other materials that referred to his work. I never read any of his manuscripts.
Relative to a previous question, all the basic physics books have an introductory section on science which contains material on the philosophy of science.
Q: Sir, returning to a question I asked a moment ago, are there any workers or thinkers in the
philosophy of science who you would recognize as having made important contributions, or being authorities?
62
A: From what I read, it would seem that Kuhn and Popper were recognized authorities, although I have no personal reason to accept them as authorities or not.
Q: Is there anyone who you would personally recognize as an authority?
A: On the philosophy of science?
Q: Yes.
A: Not necessarily on the philosophy of science.
But, on the subject of philosophy, in general, I know of a philosopher whose opinion I would consider quite authoritative. He might not be recognized by any accepted community but for my personal knowledge of him.
Q: Who is that?
A: Dr. Arthur Kannwesher. He is now retired.
He was formerly a professor of philosophy in the University of Pittsburgh.
Q: Are you aware of any work that Dr. Kannwesher has done in the philosophy of science?
A: No, I am not.
Q: Doctor, have you a definition of
63
science that you personally use?
A: I think I said before that science can be defined different ways for different contexts. So, I don't have any choice. It is valid to say science is knowledge that we gain. In the context of this law, I think science is defined — it's not explicitly stated, but I think it's implicit in the definition in Act 590, Section 4.
You get the idea that science would be knowledge gained by observations made with physical senses.
I find that a perfectly valid or acceptable definition of science. (Continued on the next page.)
64
Q: Sir, given that definition, would you say that evolution is a science?
A: Yes.
Q: So, would you say that, by that same definition, creation-science is a science?
A: Yes.
Q: Doctor, I thought that I understood you to say a short while ago that among the things you might expect to say in your testimony about the philosophy of science was that it is scientific to consider the possibility of supernatural events. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Sir, could you tell me whether you are aware of any knowledge gained by observations made with the physical senses that bears on the existence of supernatural events?
A: Yes.
Q: What is that, sir.
A: I think in some of the publications I gave you, if one takes the first and second laws of
thermodynamics, which are derived from observations made with the physical senses, one, if one tries to
extrapolate the application of those laws backwards in
65
time indefinitely, one arrives at a contradiction. To me, that is, in fact, an argument derived from that definition of science that is an argument that supernatural events have occurred.
Q: What is the contradiction that you arrive at if you extrapolate those two laws backwards in time?
A: The second law of thermodynamics, on which I don't claim to be an authority, but it is generally expressed in textbooks and in courses that I have had and in things I have read by authoritative sources, that given sufficient time, the universe as it behaves now, if it had sufficient time, it would progress to a state known as a "heat death," where energy would exist, matter would exist, but no thermodynamic process would occur.
That is, things at higher temperatures would cool down to intermediate temperatures and things
at lower temperatures would warm up to intermediate temperatures and energy would exist, but it
would be impossible to construct an engine that could run on energy, because everything would be at a
thermal equilibrium. From various writers in astronomy, it
66
is stated, if the universe never breaks this pattern of "running down," eventually, all stars would burn out and there would be no life.
I believe it is a statement that they made, the people I referred to, that life could not exist and everything would be at uniform temperature. In the second law of thermodynamics, if the universe behaved itself in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics, with no violation of that law, from the fact that we see the universe is not in a heat death, it must have been brought into being at a prior time, or wound up, that is, ordered. In the opposite sense of the second law of thermodynamics, saying that the orderliness of the universe is always decreasing as a whole. So, if the universe — another way of saying it is that the universe has not always been here for every function as it now functions. If the universe has not always been here for forever, then it must have come here into being or ordered.
That would violate the first law of thermodynamics, which expresses conservation of matter.
67
Either the universe has come into being, which violates the first law, or it must have been ordered sometime in the past. Some event must have happened not now in the scheme of the way things happen. Either way you look at it, something must have violated the first or second laws of thermodynamics.
This is not a deduction based on lack of information. It is a deduction based on knowledge of the ways things are observed to have happened now.
Q: Is the view that you have just expressed. Doctor, consistent with the definition of evolutionscience used in Act 590?
A: Could you rephrase it? Is what I have just said consistent with the definition of evolution-science?
Q: As used in Act 590.
A: What I said about the contradiction about the first and second laws of thermodynamics, I don't understand that and what was about the evolution-science.
Q: Sir, do you regard the contradiction between what you had described as related to the
68
definition of evolution-science?
A: You would not regard it as related to the definition of it.
Q: Do you regard it as relevant to determining the scientific basis or lack of basis for evolution-science?
A: Let me say this. Maybe, this will answer your question in a round-about way. I think the idea that science excludes the supernatural is one of the major means of textbooks used in the public schools — it's one of their major means of portraying evolution as more scientific than creation. Since I found within this exclusion of supernatural events a self-contradiction, I view that as insufficient grounds for portraying evolution-science as superior to creation-science.
Q: Doctor, is it your view that creation- science resorts to supernatural explanations?
A: Within a definition of creation-science in the Act, I think that is apparent. Section 4, Item A-1:
"Sudden creation of the universe, energy and life from nothing."
69
I would have to consider that as a supernatural event.
Q: Is it your view, that evolution-science resorts to supernatural explanations?
A: Yes.
In my view, any evolutionary scenario that I have ever heard must, in some way, base its argument or include in its argument some occurrence which I would consider to be a supernatural event. It would not be consistent with the way things happen now.
Q: Are you able to describe an instance of that?
A: Yes.
I think the Big Bang Theory that I have described and descriptions of the presumed Big Bang includes events which are things that are not now able to be studied by scientific processes.
Q: Are you aware of any other instances in which evolution-science resorts to supernatural explanation, aside from the Big Bang?
A: Perhaps, in the question of the origin of life. I have read, and I do not consider
70
myself an authority, but I have read a statistical computation on the probability of life evolving from non-living matter, and given the magnitude of the chance of life evolving by natural process, I would say that, if it did evolve by that means, to go a degree, is belief in supernatural. In other words, if there was essentially no chance of evolving and somebody states it evolved, anyhow, I would consider that, really, reverting to a sort of supernatural-type definition or supernatural-type argument.
Q: Have you ever read work by scientists asserting that it is possible to account for the evolution of life from non-living matter exclusively by resort to natural processes?
A: Isn't that included in the definition of evolution-science?
Or, are you now asking me that question? You are asking if I have ever read anybody that stated that?
Q: Are you aware of work that has been done in which scientists have asserted that life could emerge
by non-life, by naturalistic processes?
71
A: I think I have read quite a few of those.
I don't know if I can cite any particular reference at the moment.
Q: Looking at the definition of evolution- science in the Act, as you suggested, is there anything in that Section 4-B that you would regard as resorting to non-naturalistic or supernatural processes?
A: No.
I would say that definition excludes under evolution-science — by that definition, evolution-science would exclude the possibility of supernatural events.
That is what is meant by the term "naturalistic" in Item B-1.
Q: Doctor, can you recall any other instance which you would say that knowledge gained by observations made with the physical senses bears on the possibility of supernatural events in earth history?
A: This would not be an example of some thing where I think observations necessarily prove the
supernatural event occurred. But, I can tell you where studies are
72
being done, that could possibly lead to some proof of this supernatural event.
It has to do with what is considered the Shroud of Turin, where scientists studied the Shroud and some of the researchers concluded there are things there beyond explanation and, therefore, they believe it demonstrates that supernatural events have occurred.
But, I do not take any position on that subject, whether I believe it is authentic or whether this proves supernatural events, but one could point to that as a possible subject for study.
There is another example of scientific evidence that is evidence gained by the observations as I included in — not my definition of science, but the definition that I find implicit in this Act to which I consider a valid definition. That is the question of radio-halos as studied by Robert Gentry.
I don't claim to be an authority on that, and he would be more qualified to explain that than myself.
Q: Are there any other instances, sir?
A: I can't think of any others right now.
73
Q: Doctor, do you have any understanding or definition that you would use that distinguishes science from religion?
A: I had said that I do not personally prefer one definition of science over another. It depends on
the context of the subject under discussion, in the sense that science could be considered a search for
knowledge. And, I think, there is not necessarily any distinction between science as a religion. In other
definitions of science, I think there would be distinctions. (Continued on the next page.)
74
Q: Can you give me an instance in which under an accepted definition of science, it would be distinguished from religion?
A: Under one type of definition of science includes the requirement that any scientific theory be falsifiable, and I do not view religious ideas as being falsifiable.
Q: Dr., using the definition that you have just alluded to, that is, science may be defined as a theory that can be falsified, would you say that evolution-science is a science under that definition?
A: I would say that proponents of evolution, of evolutionary theories, do not advance falsifiability criteria; that is, they do not offer any tests whereby they would allow evolution to be falsifiable; however, that does not mean that I do not consider evolution to be falsifiable.
Q: Do you consider evolution to be falsifiable?
A: Personally, yes.
Q: Would you consider creation-science to be falsifiable?
A: Again, as myself being I suppose you would say a proponent of creation, I cannot conceive really. of
— I cannot think of anything I can give as a
75
falsifiable test for creationism as such but evolutionists consider creation to be falsifiable. Maybe I should clear up that statement.
Q: I would like to make sure that the record has a clear distinction between your own views and views you attribute to others.
Could you, perhaps, just say clearly whether you regard evolution-science as falsifiable and whether you regard creation-science as falsifiable and then if you have your other things concerning others, you can add to that.
A: Concerning evolution-science, I believe that there is evidence which falsifies evolution. Concerning creation-science, I do not think there is any evidence which falsifies creation. Does that answer your question?
Q: Not entirely. If I understood you, you have said that you believe there is evidence which falsifies evolution-science and you believe there is no evidence which falsifies creation-science?
A: Correct.
Q: I conclude also that you believe that evolution-science is falsifiable, there being evidence that
you regard as falsifying-it?
76
A: Yes, but I don't state that evolutionist present their theory as a falsifiable theory. In other words, the things I would say were falsifications of evolution, an evolutionist would explain around it and give some other explanation for that. He would not consider that evidence of falsification of evolution; and I have written to some evolutionists, in particular, Stephen F. Gould, who claims evolution was falsifiable and he could give falsifiable criteria. I wrote to him twice and asked what he was referring to and he has never answered me.
Q: I am still concerned that the record will prove to be not clear.
A: You still have to figure out whether I consider creation falsifiable.
Q: I understood that you said you believe there is evidence which falsifies evolution-science?
A: Correct.
Q: You believe evolution-science is falsifiable, that is, you personally?
A: Right.
Q: And you have said you believe there is no evidence which falsifies creation-science?
77
A: Correct.
Q: That leaves the question: Do you believe creation-science is falsifiable?
A: Not in principle, no.
Q: Why is that, sir?
A: Because I cannot conceive of any kind of experiment whose results could necessarily infer that creation has not occurred.
Q: Dr., do you regard or would you regard evolution-science as a religion?
A: I really am not competent to define what a religion is. Do you want to define "religion" and I can answer it?
Q: I would be interested in the definition of religion that you use, if you, in fact, have one.
A: I would not state that evolution as such is a religion, but I would state that evolution is a necessary basis for certain religions.
Q: Which ones are those?
A: Secular Humanism in particular; Atheism, if you consider that to be a religion.
Q: Are there any others?
A: I think there are others. I think some of the Eastern religions include a basic idea of
78
evolution as necessary for their explanations as to how the world came to be.
Q: Would you regard creation-science as a religion under the same criteria that you used in your response?
A: I said I did not consider evolution as such to be a religion, and parallel to that, I do not consider creation-science itself to be a religion but I recognize that it is similarly a basic tenant of certain religions or required of certain religions.
Q: Dr., I believe you stated earlier that you expected to give testimony within the area of philosophy of science, about logic or illogic as it appears in textbooks on evolution science. Could you describe your expected testimony in that area?
A: I don't necessarily recall everything that would be involved. One aspect would be analyzing a typical textbook, science textbook in the public schools and seeing whether the argument presented is logical or not.
Q: Can you point to any instances in which you think that works on evolution-science or scientific
papers on evolution-science are illogical?
79
A: Yes. I believe one of the items I gave you, an article entitled, "Does It Belong Here," it quoted from a scientific textbook, and showed for one thing, in making a case for evolution, there was never any logical demonstration that evolution had occurred. There was merely an assumption that it occurred.
Another thing included was a mention of scientific experiments related to spontaneous generation of life. In particular, it pointed out that Pasteur, by scientific experiments, showed life does not arise spontaneously but it went on then by assumption to state that life had arisen spontaneously.
Q: Could you describe for me how the articles that you have published in the Creation Research Society Quarterly bear on your expected testimony as to the philosophy of science?
A: In one particular detail, I could give a possible example. On the subject of logic, the article about
the solar contraction points out the type of logic used in concluding that the sun derives its energy
from nuclear fission. My article points out that this deduction that the sun derives its energy from
nuclear fission
80
based on or includes as a necessary fact the sun being billions of years old, when, in fact, as I mentioned before, I don't feel there is conclusive evidence that the sun is billions of years old.
Therefore, the argument that the sun must derive its energy from nuclear fission is not necessarily a logical argument because it fails to provide any conclusive evidence that the sun is billions of years old.
Q: Dr., what is your view as to the present state of the scientific evidence on the age of the sun? How old is the sun, given the current state of the evidence?
A: I only know of two ways in the scientific literature concerning the age of the sun, its
determination. One would have to do with radioactive dating where other materials in the solar system are dated,
which was addressed in previous questions. Another argument from which the age of the sun is deduced is
the presumed sequence whereby stars are said to evolve from one state to another. Since that is said
to require, for any change in that sequence to occur, vast periods of time is required, many orders of
magnitude, longer than a
81
human lifetime or longer than the time science as a human pursuit has existed, since those stages of the evolution of stars are not verifiable by someone observing the passage of a star through any such sequence of events, then I don't consider that dating method for the age of stars to be necessarily valid. That was my second point of what I mentioned as the second means by which the age of the sun is computed.
One other method that is given for dating the sun's age would have to do with theories of formation of the solar system, the entire solar system, not just the sun. I couldn't quote any references but from what I studied, I am not convinced that any of those theories of formation of the solar system can be shown to be proven, demonstrated to be consistent with all known scientific laws. That's the end of my answer.
Q: Dr., is it a fair summary of the testimony you have just given that your work on solar contraction,
the article, points up illogical reasoning in evolution scientists because the argument for the method
by which the sun's energy is derived depends upon a great age for the sun, and since there is not
82
adequate evidence for that great age, the argument becomes illogical?
A: Correct.
Q: Would you say then that the arguments were illogical if there were, in fact, sound evidences for the great age of the sun?
A: It would depend on your definition of the words "sound evidence." If observations could show by some falsifiable method that the sun was, in fact, billions of years old, then I would consider the aspect of evolution-science dealing with the age of the sun and the mechanism whereby the sun derives its energy, I would consider that as a logical possibility.
Q: Dr., do you regard the method of determining an age for the sun that you referred to earlier as the method of dating other matter in the solar system by radiometric methods, as falsifiable evidence?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Why is that, sir?
A: Because, for one thing, there is no way of determining what, say, the initial isotopic abundance is for
a given parent nuclide were, and on falsifiability I cannot remember any radiometric dating
theorist making a statement that if such evidence is found,
83
we will discount radiometric dating as scientific or as accurate, would be the better word.
Q: Dr., what is your view as to the mechanism from which the sun's energy is derived?
A: I don't particularly favor one mechanism over another. I might point out, in the abstract to my article entitled something about the shrinking sun, the abstract states or maybe the abstract to the second article entitled, "The Inconsistent Sun," states, I believe, the gravitational collapse is the mechanism whereby the sun derives its energy.
I did not write that abstract. The editor wrote that and I did not necessarily consider gravitational collapse as the correct mechanism. I think it is a possible mechanism. It has not been discounted for any good scientific reason.
Q: Would you say there are any other mechanisms which have also not been discounted for any valid scientific reasons?
A: There are some other ones mentioned in that article. There are some mechanisms mentioned in
that article, ones that have historically been considered such as gravitational absorption or meteorites
or cometary material from the sun.
84
Offhand, I couldn't say whether I would judge those to be ruled out by scientific evidence or not. There are other theories and I personally, without studying back into it now, I could not state whether other of those theories could be valid possibilities or not.
Q: Dr., would you state that the theory that the sun derives its energy from nuclear fission is a valid scientific theory?
A: I would consider it a valid possibility. Whether its formulation by, say, people that propose such theory, whether its formulation is given in a falsifiable manner, I do not know.
For example, the Neutrino Paradox. The Neutrino Paradox posed a problem for the nuclear fission model of the sun's derivation and I don't — I am not convinced that the nuclear fission theorists approach that Neutrino Paradox as being possibly a falsification of their own theory.
Q: Do you regard the Neutrino Paradox as a falsification of the nuclear fission theory?
A: There would have to be more elaboration on the nuclear fission theory. There is a view, for
example, that nuclear fission occurs only at certain
85
times in the sun's life and if such were true, then there could be a paucity of neutrinos.
There could be a paucity of neutrinos flux as compared to the expectations derived from the previous formulation of the nuclear fusion model. So it would be possible to put together a nuclear fusion model that occurs in spurts so that the Neutrino Paradox would not necessarily falsify the nuclear fusion model.
Q: Would you regard the Neutrino Paradox as a falsification of a model of nuclear fusion for the sun, which expected that the nuclear fusion goes on constantly?
A: Not necessarily. As people have done, it is a possibility that some of the assumptions in the
"Neutrino Paradox" may themselves not be demonstrable — that is, certain assumed steps in the nuclear
fusion cycle may not be what they were theorized as being, and there might possibly be some other decay
that could bleed off some isotope or, in fact, recently there have been theories that neutrinos are not
stable and if that happened, verifiable by scientific experiment, then the Neutrino Paradox I would not
consider to be a falsification of the constant nuclear fusion theory.
86
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Time Noted: 2:20 PM.)
HILTON FAY HINDERLITER,
having been previously duly sworn, was examined, and testified further as follows:
BY MR. WOLFE:
Q: Doctor, would you tell me what you regard as the basis for your qualifications to testify on the philosophy of science?
A: I would say that that has occupied the principal part of my research and the things that I have studied about creation/evolution for a period of perhaps five years, have mainly dealt with the logic of the arguments involved.
I have had courses in philosophy and logic, even though no specific course in the philosophy of science, and a major aspect of what I teach involves logic, logic dealing with science.
Q: Doctor, what would you say is the basis of your qualifications in nuclear physics?
A: There, I have had formal graduate work on that subject and my degree was granted in that area.
Q: Is any of the work that you have done,
87
the research that you have done since your Ph.D. research, been applicable to nuclear physics, rather than the philosophy of science?
A: What I have done since the granting of my Ph.D. has been the type of experimental research that I did in graduate school.
To the extent that I have studied into, you might say, the arguments involved in the presentation of radiometric dates, I think you could say I have pursued the subject of radioactivity or nuclear physics in that sense further than where I left off with my Ph.D. thesis.
Q: Doctor, do you subscribe to any journals in physics?
A: No.
Q: Do you subscribe to any professional journals at all?
A: Just the Creation Research Society Quarterly.
Q: Sir, what testimony do you expect to give about radioactive decay processes and radiometric dating?
A: Basically, I presume I could say that I have no qualms about the theory of radioactivity,
88
half-lifes and such, but the dating methods involve certain assumptions which are not falsifiable or subject to proof or even verification. So, it would be those assumptions that I would question.
Q: What are those assumptions, sir?
A: I believe there are three principal assumptions. One is, in order to calculate an age from mathematic dating, one must know the initial isotopic abundance of the parent nuclides. Another one is the radioactive decay rates have remained constant throughout time, and the third assumption is that no transport phenomena have moved nuclides into the system or out of the system during the time that the radioactive disintegration is to have taken place.
Q: Do you regard all three of the assumptions you have just listed as non-falsifiable?
A: I do not regard them all as non-falsifiable, but I do regard them in their present state of presentation as not being demonstrated to have been necessarily true.
Q: Doctor, would you say that the three
89
assumptions you have listed apply to all the radiometric dating methods with which you are familiar?
A: Yes.
Q: Which methods have you worked with, sir, or made inquiry into?
A: Three methods:
Uranium to lead; potassium to argon; and one that is not referred to as much is rubidium to strontium.
Q: Do you regard those three methods or either of them as capable of giving an accurate estimate of the age of the earth?
A: No.
Q: Why is that, sir?
A: Because any calculation based on them is no more conclusive than the assumptions put into them.
Therefore, when you say "accurate," I assume you mean this is known this is what the age of the earth is.
Q: Doctor, are any of the three assumptions that you listed falsifiable?
A: In principle, I think they could be considered falsifiable.
90
Q: So that is your view as to all three?
A: I am not sure I could say that — guessing of initial isotopic abundances could be worked into some falsifiable statement.
Q: Then, is it correct that it would be your view that the other two assumptions, namely, that radioactive decay rates have been constant through time and what we might call the assumption of the absence of transport phenomena, are both falsifiable?
A: Right. I don't mean that they have been falsified. I mean they are, in principle, falsifiable.
Q: Are you aware of any evidence which you regard as having falsified either of those assumptions?
A: I have read material, that is, literature speaking of transport phenomena, like evidence of
transport phenomena having occurred. So, I would say that, in principle, could falsify the general assumption
that no transport phenomena have occurred. But, I do not feel that — the things I have read would
necessarily falsify the particular
91
calculations based on particular isotopes in certain decay schemes.
Q: Sir, could you describe for me what you mean by the assumption about the initial isotopic abundances of parent nuclides?
A: Yes.
In radioactive disintegration, a parent nuclide disintegrates or, you might say, in a population of parent nuclides, the individual ones disintegrate through time.
And, in order to take a sample at a given time and calculate back to how long or how old that material is, it is necessary to know how much of each isotope there was in the sample to start with.
Q: Could you describe what initial assumption as to beginning isotopic abundances is made for the potassium/argon method?
A: Offhand, I could not quote any numbers or any blanket statements about what the assumptions are.
Q: Do you know what the assumption in that area is for the uranium/lead method?
A: Not the particular details of it, no.
Q: Do you know what the assumption in that
92
area is for rubidium/strontium?
A: No.
Q: Doctor, have you ever worked in a laboratory which could make uranium/lead or potassium— argon or rubidium/strontium age determinations?
A: No.
Q: Is it your view that geochronologists work out accurate methods for these three techniques, if you will allow the three assumptions that you have described?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it your view that geochronologists working either of these three methods are always incapable of demonstrating the absence of transport phenomena as to a particular sample that is being dated?
A: Do I believe they are always incapable of demonstrating the absence of transport phenomena?
Yes.
I think, in principle — personally, I question whether, in principle, one could demonstrate the absence
of transport phenomena. I know of no experiment that would prove in a given sample, say, that
transport phenomena had not occurred.
93
Maybe those types of things exist, but, at the moment, I cannot think of any.
Q: Would you say that another way of restating this third assumption, that is, the assumption of the absence transport phenomena, — is to say that you must assume that the sample to be dated has remained a closed system as to the parent and daughter nuclides?
A: Either that it has remained a closed system or else you would have to be able to explain to what degree and of what nature transport phenomena have affected that sample.
Q: Are you aware of any techniques used in any one of these three methods which purport to be able to demonstrate as to particular samples that they have, in fact, been closed samples as to the parent and daughter nuclides?
A: I think I have heard of such an analyses.
Q: Do you have any view as to whether these purported analyses of which you have heard are, in fact, capable of doing what they purport to do?
A: Again, I would just personally question in principle whether they could do what they purport to do.
Whether they are self-consistent or not,
94
I am not really competent to judge.
Q: Do you know whether geochronologists who work with any one of these methods are generally of the opinion that there are means of establishing the absence of the transport phenomena as to particular samples to be dated?
A: I couldn't really say if I know what the general view is because I have not been exposed to any publication that makes a statement in that terms, as presenting the general view.
Q: Have you ever discussed radioactive decay processes or the radiometric dating methods, the three you mentioned, with, any scientists who have performed age determinations with any one of these methods?
A: Yes, by correspondence, not orally.
Q: Could you tell me as to which methods and what scientists that is true of?
A: The scientists, in particular, the one I remember is — some of the letters I enclosed were with regard to that.
I had written to Gerald Wasserburg, his laboratory, and I don't remember the address, but it is said to
be one of the foremost for the billions
95
of years dating. There are other radioactive dating methods like carbon, which applies to a shorter period of time, but I had written to Wasserburg. There was another part to the question, which I have forgotten.
Q: As to which method did you correspond with Dr. Wasserburg?
A: I think it was on the initial abundance thing.
Q: Do you know whether your letter to Dr. Wasserburg was included in the document production that you gave me earlier today?
A: I don't remember.
MR. WOLFE: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record)
Q: Doctor, I have the letter from you to Dr. Wasserburg, dated February 12, 1980, which you included in the document production this morning. Do you recall whether you had written on any other occasion to Dr. Wasserburg about radiometric dating techniques?
A: I recall at least one other time that I wrote to him.
96
Q: Do you know whether you still have a copy of that other letter that you remember?
A: I'm not sure. I might.
Q: I would request that when you return home, that you would check to see whether you do have a copy of that letter. And, if you do, whether you would be willing to make it available to us through the Attorney General's Office prior to trial.
Q: Doctor, did you ever receive a reply from Dr. Wasserburg to either of your letters?
A: Yes.
(Continued on the next page.)
97
Q: Do you recall the substance of the reply that you received?
A: Generally, he sent me reprints of publications that he had made. I think in the other letter I wrote to him, I sent him copies of some other articles, questioning the isotopic abundance that are used in some of the calculations, and I asked him what do you think of these arguments.
They were not my arguments. They were something I had read elsewhere that questioned the isotopic abundances in uranium/lead. He replied, I think to that, by saying, "What arguments?"
I think that was his reply.
He did not respond to the arguments. He just implied that the arguments were not even worthy of consideration.
Q: Can you recall more clearly what material you had sent to him or the source of the calculations that you sent to him at that time?
A: Yes. I think I still have a copy of those articles.
98
Q: I will make an additional request that if you can locate them when you return home, that you make them available to us before trial, through the Attorney General. Doctor, are you aware of any experiments which have been conducted which sought to determine whether or not radioactive decay rates could be altered by physical conditions?
A: Yes, I am aware of some.
Q: Are you aware of any experiments which indicated that such alteration was possible?
A: I believe, yes. I couldn't quote the reference right now.
Q: Do you recall the substance of that experiment; that is, what condition it was which was capable of altering the constancy of the decay rate?
A: I think it had to do with the electric field in which the decaying nucleus was situated. That is the best I remember.
Q: Do you recall whether that experiment applied to all of the decaying mechanisms or only to one?
A: Do you mean like one particular decay?
99
Q: Yes, sir, as to alpha decay or beta decay.
A: I am not sure. I would assume that it applied only to — as far as the radioactive dating methods go, alpha decay would be the only one that is of interest because it's the long half-life decay.
Q: Sir, is it your understanding that the three methods that we have talked about all proceed by alpha decay?
A: The radioactive decay schemes mentioned include alpha decay.
In any mechanism scheme, there is maybe an alpha decay followed by a beta and/or a gamma and another alpha decay. They all include alphas. That's the long half-life; not carbon dating.
Q: Do you know whether any of the three methods that you have mentioned actually have an electron captured decay scheme?
A: I think some of the uranium-to-lead at least include in the decay scheme an electron capture. I am
not sure whether that is crucial
100
in determining the age by that method.
Q: Sir, do you know, if electron captured decay is part of the decay scheme for rubidium-strontium or potassium/argon techniques?
A: Without looking into the case schemes, I couldn't say one way or the other. I seem to remember, though, in potassium/ argon, there is a critical branching ratio, and I think that would involve some type of beta. But, again, I am not sure without looking it up.
Q: I am not certain whether I asked you this a moment ago or not, but, in addition to the one instance that you recalled, are you aware of any other experiment in which change in physical conditions, temperature or pressure or chemical combination or any other, has been able to alter the constancy of radioactive decay rates?
A: No. Without looking it up, I couldn't say.
Q: Doctor, if we were to assume that no experiment had ever been able to alter the rate of alpha decay
by changing temperature or pressure or state of chemical combination, would you regard that as
101
suggestive or persuasive evidence that alpha decay rates had been constant through time?
A: Not necessarily.
Q: Why not, sir?
A: Because I think it would be philosophically conceivable that we do not know everything, every characteristic of radioactive decay theory or possible characteristics of the environment that might influence radioactive decay rates.
Q: Doctor, recognizing that there is always the possibility of some factor that one has been able to think of, do you regard it as suggestive evidence for constancy if you have performed experiments as to every factor that you can think of and have found that none of them altered the decay rates?
A: Would you repeat the beginning of the question?
(Question read by Reporter.)
A: I would say that such an argument would have bearing on what happens in experiments now, but it would not necessarily imply what happened in the past.
Q: Why is that, sir?
A: Because, conceivably, the universe might have operated under some different mode of behavior in the
102
past.
I am not saying there is evidence it did, but, from a philosophical point of view, we have no way of knowing whether it did or not.
Q: Would you say then that evidence in decay rates are constant under current physical conditions, no matter how those conditions are altered experimentally, at least suggests that any alteration in the decay rates in the past must have been as a result of some condition other than those which have been tested experimentally?
A: I think it is impossible to answer that question because I think the beginning of it assumed that decay rates are constant and you asked questions about evidence showing that they are not constant.
Q: Doctor, is it your view that radioactive decay rates today, and over the last twenty-five years, or more, have been constant?
A: I am not of any strong conviction that they have or have not.
I think it is conceivable that they might not have been, but I do not argue that they have not been.
I do not take a position wherein I claim
103
that they have not been constant.
Q: Were you aware of any experiments which have been conducted, the results of which purport to demonstrate that decay rates have been constant over the experimental period?
A: I think the general — the fact that decay rates have been measured implies that they are not to some degree constant; otherwise, it would be impossible to measure a half-life. I think you are referring to experiments that have shown that they have varied somewhat.
Q: Perhaps, the misunderstanding here is because my question was unclear. If we assume that
experiments have been conducted as to the alpha decay process, and they have indicated that alpha decay
is constant today when it has been sought to be measured and the experiments have further been
conducted that sought to vary that decay rate by applying extremes of temperature or extremes of
pressure or combining the parent radioactive nuclide with different combinations of chemical elements, and
none of those experiments seeking to alter the decay rate had done so, no matter what conditions were
applied, given those assumptions, would you regard that as
104
suggestive evidence that at least any alteration in decay rates in the past must have taken place by some conditions or circumstances other than those which had been tested experimentally?
A: To the extent that I can remember all of that, yes.
Q: Are you satisfied that you do remember, or would you like to have the question read back?
A: You can read the question one more time.
(Question read by Reporter.)
I would consider that a reasonable conclusion., yes.
Q: Doctor, are you familiar with the concordia/discordia technique in uranium/lead age determination?
A: I have heard of it. I have not studied it enough to be able to criticize it without further study.
I think there are people more qualified to address that than myself. In other words, I do not think I have time between now and the trial to become an expert on that.
Q: Have you heard that there are
105
geochronologists who regard that method as capable of demonstrating whether or not a particular sample has been a closed chemical system?
A: I believe I am aware of such arguments being made.
Q: Do you have any views as to the soundness of that contention?
A: Without further study on it, I don't think I could take a position on that one way or the other.
Q: Doctor, are you familiar with the isochron technique for use with rubidium/strontium and potassium/argon dating techniques?
A: I am familiar with the term "isochrons". I have read materials about such isochron methods. Offhand, I don't remember which decays they refer to.
Q: Are you aware of any geochronologists who contend that use of the isochron technique in potassium/argon or rubidium/strontium methods permit the determination of whether or not the sample dated has been a closed chemical system?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: Sir, do you have any view on the soundness
106
of that contention?
A: No. I wouldn't take a position on that. I can say, personally, I am skeptical of the idea that the isochron argument could determine whether there has been any transport in or out of the sample.
Q: Could you explain the basis for your skepticism?
A: I guess just common principle, if one were — it's just in principle to me, I cannot see how — maybe, I should say, when I read the things I read about isochrons, I was not convinced that the isochron method was convincing evidence that transport had not occurred.
At the present time, I cannot remember any reason why I felt that way when I read the articles, unless I go back and read them again or maybe be exposed to the argument given by people more qualified to challenge the isochron argument.
Q: Doctor, are you familiar with the argon-40/argon-39 method of reaching age determinations?
A: I believe I heard of it.
Q: Have you ever heard the contention that
107
use of the age spectrum technique with argon-40/ argon-39 method is capable of identifying whether or not a particular sample has been a closed chemical system?
A: I don't remember that phrase, "age spectrum".
I may have read it, but I don't remember whether I have.
Q: Doctor, have you had any course work in isotopic chemistry?
A: No.
Q: Sir, are you aware of the contention that there are certain chemical isotopes which occur in nature only as the product of radioactive decay series?
A: I am aware of a contention that certain ones existing in certain samples could only have occurred as a result of decay.
Q: Do you have a view on the soundness of that contention?
A: I think this gets into Robert Gentry's work with certain polonium isotopes, and I believe that
the argument there is that all of certain short half- life polonium isotopes must have been the product of a
107a
radioactive decay from a parent, but that assumption is called into question by the data that Gentry
has. From there on, he is better to answer that question than I am. (Continued on the next page.)
108
Q: Are you aware of any other instances in which the contention that certain isotopes occur in nature only as the product of radioactive decay?
A: Possibly as with regard to certain argon isotopes.
Q: Do you recall which ones?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Are you aware of any radiometric dating technique which seeks to avoid the necessity for an assumption as to the initial isotopic abundance of the parent radio-nuclide by measuring only a radiogenic daughter and taking no measurement of a parent nuclide at all?
A: I would imagine that such a scheme — I may have heard of such a scheme being proposed but I would question it in principle because it would be no more conclusive than the assumption that such a radio-nuclide did not exist in the initial sample.
Q: Dr., if we could return for a few minutes to your testimony about short period comets. Sir, I believe you stated earlier that short period comets are observed to decrease in luminosity.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know why that takes place?
109
A: I believe it is caused by the blowing- away of cometary material by the sun as the comet passes into the vicinity of the sun.
Q: I am afraid my notes are not perfectly clear on this. Was it correct that you stated earlier that the lifetime of short period comets may be used to derive an age for the universe or for the solar system?
A: Yes.
Q: Because if the decrease in luminosity observed in short period comets is extrapolated backwards in time, more than a few — I am afraid that I did not write down what you said.
A: More than a few tens of thousands of years.
Q: If it is extrapolated further back than that, it requires the assumption that the initial state of the comets must have been unreasonable, by virtue of their being extraordinarily bright; is that a fair statement?
A: Extraordinarily bright or extraordinarily large or massive, one or the other or both.
Q: Sir, is it your view that this evidence about short period comets bears on the scientific
110
soundness of either creation-Science or evolution- science as a theory?
A: I believe when that subject was raised, we were discussing the dating methods, and I said that the short period comet argument can be used to develop a dating method that would give a young age for the universe. To the extent that the young age would contradict the evolution-science model, it would have bearing on that then.
Q: Do you have a view about the accuracy of this short period comet method for calculating the age for the universe?
A: Accuracy in terms of saying the age of the universe is a certain value?
Q: Yes, sir.
A: I think it is mostly in order of magnitude thing. It would be difficult to draw a line and say this size or brightness of a comet would be reasonable and anything beyond that would be unreasonable.
Q: Are there any assumptions that are implicit in this method for estimating age by the evidence from short period comets?
A: Yes.
111
Q: What are they?
A: I believe they would be the same kind of assumptions or, let's say, some assumptions parallel to those involved in radioactive dating. For example, the rate of disintegration of comets has been constant in the past and that nothing came into the system which would be analogous to the transport phenomena.
Q: Are you aware of any other explanation for the observed evidence on short period comets and their decrease in luminosity other than a short age for the universe?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell me what that is?
A: I believe there is an explanation that there is beyond the orbit of Pluto, which is the outermost planet, there is some material available which can be brought into a cometary orbit by perhaps the passing of a star through the vicinity, and that causes new material to be added or it causes such material to become a comet.
Q: That is, to become a short period comet?
A: I believe so. Short period comets generally have some connection with Jupiter. I might
112
have to qualify the previous statement, without checking into whether the short period comets — I believe the short period comets are the ones that are explained, whose origin is explained as this material beyond the solar system.
Q: Dr., have you a view as to which of the two explanations, that is, the one that you have just described about material beyond the orbit of Pluto, and the explanation of a short age for the universe, better fits the current state of the scientific evidence?
A: I think they would be equally — they could be judged as equally valid possibilities.
Q: Are you aware of any observations which tend to support either explanation?
A: The phraseology of that question causes me to wonder because observations that the short
period comets do decrease in brightness would be part of the argument for the solar system being young. So
that would be supported by observations. On the other hand, I know of no observations being made of
any material in this supposed cloud of protocometary matter existing out beyond the orbit of Pluto.
113
Q: Are you aware of any observations which imply the existence of the protocometary material we have been discussing?
A: I can't remember of any such awareness.
Q: Are you aware of any instances in which a previously unknown short period comet has been observed to appear and then reappear in a short period comet orbit?
A: I can't think of any instances of that.
Q: Would you regard such an observation, that is, of previously unknown short period comets which is observed approaching the inner solar system and then observed to round the sun, depart from the solar system and return several times on a short period comet orbit as implying support for the existence of the protocometary material beyond the orbit of Pluto?
A: That would seem reasonable on the surface. However, in an analogy with radiometric dating
where one would assume that finding material that shows evidence of transport phenomena having occurred
or comparing the age, calculated age for a known sample with an age determined by other methods
and finding a contradiction, those things, I believe, have
114
happened but if they can be explained away by the radiometric people, I think if somebody analyzed the short period comet argument, he could come up with a comparable ad hoc hypothesis.
Q: Dr., are you aware of any reason for not accepting the reasonableness of the line of argument that I described in my last question, except for the analogy that you described as to radiometric dating in your last answer?
A: I can't think of any other, no.
Q: Dr., I would like to turn our attention to one of your articles from the Creation Research Society Quarterly, the one of the shrinking sun, if we may.
Dr., in that article, on the first page near the bottom of the first column, there is a reference to the Fireplace Model. Could you explain to me exactly what you meant by that?
A: That generally refers to the idea of the sun deriving its energy by some sort of burning as wood or coal would burn in a fireplace.
Q: Is that just ordinary chemical combustion?
A: Yes.
115
Q: Is the statement within the article your own view; namely, the Fireplace Model cannot be an explanation for the sun's energy mechanism because recorded history is of greater duration than would be the duration of the sun under that model?
A: I have never done any actual calculations on my own on that. In reading other analyses, I remember that the numbers were quoted as something within the span of recorded history. Therefore, I accepted the idea that it is not — that the Fireplace Model does not remain as a major contender, say, for a model for the sun's energy generation.
Q: Is it true that your rejection of that model was based on not calculations that you have done, but your memory of other calculations that indicated —
A: Yes.
Q: Dr., is it correct that you have no view of your own on this matter, but it is a matter of assessing the accuracy of calculations by others?
A: At the present time, I would say I have not recalculated the calculations of people who had
already done extensive theory work on models
116
of the sun's energy generation. If I had any reason to suspect that those were in error, I would consider the recalculation would be in order.
Q: Sir, do you have any view as to what the interior temperature of the sun is?
A: Do you mean do I have a view as to what it is or do I have a view concerning claims as to what it is?
Q: Both. Take them one at a time. Do you have a view, yourself, as to what the interior temperature of the sun is?
A: Not with any degree of certainty, no. would say within limits. In other words, it would probably be at least as warm as the surface of the sun but no greater temperature than that expected by the nuclear fusion model.
I assume it would be in that range but that is a wide range. So I have no reason to opt for one of those over another.
Q: Do you have any awareness of whether there is a generally accepted view as to the interior temperature of the sun?
A: I think among people who adhere to the nuclear fusion scheme, there would be a generally
117
accepted view.
Q: Do you know what that is, sir?
A: I just have to take a wild guess without looking it up. I think it was 40-million degrees Kelvin.
Are you aware of any of the arguments for why the temperature of the center of the sun must be, let's say — assuming that it is 40-million degrees Kelvin, the figure you used, are you aware of any of the arguments for why that must be the temperature of the center of the sun?
A: I think within the nuclear fusion model, such a temperature would be necessary in order for the proposed fusion reactions to proceed at the required rates.
Q: Are you aware of any contention that the interior temperature of the sun must be that high in order to prevent gravitational collapse of the sun?
A: I think I may have heard of that argument but that argument would assume that the sun is in equilibrium with respect to gravitational collapse and not now collapsing.
Q: Do you have a view as to whether or not
118
that assumption is sound?
A: I would have no personal preference as to whether that view is sound or unsound.
Q: Do you think the present state of the scientific evidence suggests that that view is sound or unsound?
A: No.
Q: Sir, is your answer because you are not aware of the state of the present scientific evidence or that it equally supports that contention and its opposite?
A: I think that any argument against the reasonableness of an explanation that the sun is not now in equilibrium, gravitational equilibrium, any argument against that as a possibility would incorporate some of the problems that I mentioned before with models for the formation of the solar system.
Q: Dr., would you say that your article that we have been talking about here takes a view as to whether or not the sun is in gravitational equilibrium?
A: The abstract of one of those articles made a statement the conveyed the idea that I was. I don't
believe the text of the article takes a
119
position that gravitational collapse is more believable than the nuclear fusion model; possibly that it is more believable than the constant rate nuclear fusion model but I don't think I implied by this that the gravitational collapse would be superior to some on/off fusion model. At the present time, I would say those are both possibilities.
Q: Sir, if we could look just at your article from the June 1980 issue of the Creation Research Society Quarterly, would you say that you took a position in that paper as to whether or not the sun is undergoing gravitational contraction?
A: I would have to read the article first. I think. I haven't read it lately.
Q: I take it you are saying you do not recall whether or not you took a position in that article on whether or not the sun was undergoing gravitational contraction?
A: Correct.
Q: Sir, do you recall whether you wrote the title that is given for your article here on the June 1980
issue, that is, "The Shrinking Sun: A Creation as to Prediction, Its Verification and the
120
Resulting Implications for Theories of Origins"?
A: Yes. I wrote that title.
Q: What prediction did you have reference to in the title?
A: The prediction that it might be possible that data, scientific data, would show or would argue for gravitational collapse — not necessarily gravitational collapse. It would be data that would imply a collapse and that would be the shrinking part.
Q: Can you say what the verification is, which you have reference to in the title?
A: The verification referred to John Eddy's data claiming to show that the sun had decreased in size.
Q: I will also draw your attention to page 58 in the article, the second column, the first full
paragraph under the subheading "Call In The Shrink." The second sentence reads, "To be blunt, solar contraction
is the refreshing breeze that simply blows away the foggy dilemma." From that we have just looked at,
do you recall whether or not your article took a position on whether or not the sun was involved in
gravitational contraction?
121
A: I would say given my position now and even my position when I wrote the article, that statement might have been better worded. Solar contraction could be a refreshing breeze that simply blows away the foggy dilemma.
Q: Then do I take it correctly that you are saying your current view is that the Sun could be undergoing gravitational contraction and that you would not say that the present evidence suggests that the sun is undergoing gravitational contraction?
A: Correct.
Q: Is it fair to say that to the extent your article from the June 1980 Creation Research Society Quarterly seems to state more that the sun's undergoing gravitational contraction, that you now have a different view?
A: I would say now I do not have a different view than I had when I wrote the article. Perhaps I
should have rephrased that sentence to correctly express my views at that time. I would have looked at
the context of the whole thing and see if I could make it clear in other statements that I then
considered gravitational
122
contraction as a possible explanation on, not necessarily the correct explanation. Maybe I should qualify this by saying that at the time I wrote this article, I leaned heavily on John Eddy's expertise or competence. And I notice under the last paragraph in the article on page 59, "As it turns out, the contraction has actually been observed," et cetera. Maybe it would be more accurate to state that my views now are not the same as that statement. In looking back, I felt at the time I was really not arguing that contraction was the necessary mechanism, but that recollection may refer to a time after I had read other criticisms of Eddy's data. So it might be more accurate to say that I have somewhat changed my position since the time I wrote this article, at least in the frame of mind I was in when I wrote those words.
Q: Do I take it then, sir, that your view of the reliability of Dr. Eddy's observations is different now from what it was when you wrote this article; is that right?
A: I have come across no reason to question Dr. Eddy's observations but I have heard counter
123
arguments claiming there is no evidence for the shrinkage of the sun. So I guess I would be less emphatic now in stating that the evidence purporting to show the contraction of the sun is conclusive.
Q: Dr., can you describe for me what the counter-evidence that you are aware of, which perhaps calls Dr. Eddy's observations into question?
A: I can vaguely remember it but I can't pin it down I have it in my file at home. I have articles referring to it. I might point out, too, there is additional evidence or I have heard or read reports of additional evidence besides that published by Dr. Eddy that would also argue for the shrinkage of the sun. That had to do with, I believe, recent observations of solar eclipses but I can't remember the specifics.
Q: Dr., are you able to summarize for me your discussion of solar neutrinos, perhaps the Neutrino Paradox as it bears on the question of whether the sun is undergoing gravitational collapse?
A: You mean the things in addition to what is in the article? I think it is pretty much explained in
the article.
124
Q: I am asking if you consider it possible the summarize the article's exposition briefly?
A: According to the accepted theory of radioactivity and the stipulations incorporated into the nuclear fusion model for the sun's energy generation, a certain amount of neutrino flux was expected; that would be neutrinos observable at the position of the Earth.
At the time that the Fusion Model was designed or worked out, there was no experimental way to count neutrinos or detect neutrinos. But, then, later experimental methods were devised for the detection of neutrinos, and when measurements were made of the neutrino flux at the Earth, the observed numbers were much smaller than expected on the basis of solar theory which itself is based on the nuclear fusion model. Does that answer your question?
Q: I think so.
Dr., calling your attention to page 58 in the article, the part under the subheading, "The
Experimental Results" in the second column, there is a statement there that the number of neutrinos observed falls
far short of the expected number that
125
no more than one/tenth of the expected number are observed.
Do you know if the experimenter who was seeking to detect neutrinos has continued that experimental technique since the time of the result that you referred to?
A: I believe he has continued it to some degree. I am not sure how long.
Q: Do you know if there had been subsequent observations of more than the number?
A: You mean significantly more than?
Q: Yes, sir.
A: I don't know of any such.
Q: Have you heard that Mr. Davis is presently recording observations about three times as great as those that you have referred to here?
A: No, I have not heard that. I have not checked into the data lately.
Q: Turning to page 59 of the article, in the summary paragraph, there is a statement, part of which is italicized:
"It is clear we have witnessed a major scientific defeat for evolutionism." Could you tell me what
you meant by
126
"major scientific defeat for evolutionism"?
A: I think it explains it further. It says as we have seen its vital organ, and then it refers to the billion year minute, persuading astrophysicists to reject the possibility of solar contraction.
Q: I am still not certain I understand exactly what you regarded as "a major scientific defeat for evolutionism."
Was it in the neutrino count observations which showed only a tenth as much as expected or Dr. Eddy's results indicating gravitational contraction of the sun?
A: I would say that both of those accumulations of data directed people's attention to the fact that evolution had conveyed the idea that gravitational collapse was not a viable theory for the sun's energy generation, and the defeat was that now these data have directed people's attention to where they would consider gravitation contraction as a possibility, which removes the exclusive position that nuclear fusion had, as an explanation for the sun's energy source, which, of course, ties to the billions of years age of the sun.
Q: Do you know that there was a conference
127
on the sun held at Goddard Space Flight Center in 1980?
A: I can't remember that.
Q: Were you aware that three separate investigating groups, I think one from England, one from MIT, and one from the Goddard Center, have published results calling into question Dr. Eddy's observations?
A: I may have been familiar with it but I don't remember it by name.
Q: If we assumed that three groups since Dr. Eddy's publications have suggested that his observations are not, in fact, accurate and Dr. Davis is presently recording three times as many neutrino counts as you had understood at the time of your article, would you still regard the subject matter, the article here, as a major scientific defeat for evolutionism?
A: I think I would, yes.
Q: Why is that, sir?
A: The answer to that question would get into the nature of a scientific community.
Q: Could you explain to me what it is about the nature of the scientific community that
128
causes you to regard the subject matter, despite the changes that we have alluded to, as still constituting a major scientific defeat for evolutionism?
A: Yes. I would say it would not surprise me if pressure was exerted on such person as Dr. Eddy or Dr. Davis to re-present, reformulate or give less emphasis or present as less convincing the data they had formerly presented.
Q: Sir, are you suggesting that the intellectual honesty of evolution scientists is not necessarily reliable?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Would you similarly attribute the three research groups that I referred to earlier who had made observations contradicting Dr. Eddy's as also the result of, essentially, intellectual dishonesty?
A: I would not assume that was necessarily true of them. I would consider it as a possibility.
Q: Could you tell me what it is that causes you to call into question the intellectual honesty of evolution scientists?
A: Yes. Some of the other documents I gave to you included letters I had written to the journals
Science and Science 1981, both of which
129
recently printed articles that contain statements that were not true when addressing issues related to the creation/evolution controversy.
Q: What statements were they?
A: One article in the Journal of Science began with the statement that the law recently passed in Arkansas — I think I can remember what it said — that that law would essentially mandate the teaching of the biblical account of creation. I know that is not what the law said. I wrote to the editor of Science, asking that that be corrected.
Q: You are saying you do not regard it as fair to say that that is essentially what the Arkansas statute requires?
A: The Arkansas statute specifically forbids the teaching of religious writings, and the biblical account of the creation is a religious writing.
Q: I think I understood your paraphrase of the statement in
Science to be that the Arkansas statute essentially required the statement of the biblical account of creation, and I take it you regard it untrue
as to interpreting the Arkansas
130
statute as essentially requiring that?
MR. CLARK: He said what he thinks the Arkansas statute says.
Q: I understood you just said now what you thought the Arkansas statute says. Is it true you also would regard anyone who thought that the Arkansas statute required whatever your paraphrase was, essentially the teaching of the biblical account — that you believed that understanding of the Arkansas statute cannot be held honestly?
A: I would say anybody writing an article, which as a major aspect of the article addresses the law of Arkansas, under the assumption that such a person would have studied the law to know what it says, I would say yes, such a person could not honestly conclude that the law in Arkansas effectively mandates the teaching of the biblical account of creation.
Q: I would like to turn just for a moment to your second article, the one in the December, 1980 issue
of the Creation Research Society Quarterly and, particularly, looking at page 145, the last page of
that article. In the first full paragraph on the first
131
page, the first sentence reads: "So with the realization that vast age stellar evolution retains no substance worthy of further refutation" — and I will omit a parenthetical—"let's consider what the really reliable source — the Bible — has to say." Could you tell me what you meant by referring to the Bible as the really reliable source in that context?
A: Yes. In the things that I have studied about the Bible, that I find no inconsistency or no reason as not necessarily as a scientific view, but from logic and just general source of knowledge, I find no reason to question the Bible as a reliable source of — I should have said dependable statements.
Q: Sir, in what documents would be the source for the concept of vast age stellar evolution?
A: I think, generally, writings of astrophysicists mapping out a scenario how stars evolved from one stage to another over vast periods of time.
Q: Then is it fair to characterize this statement as saying that you regard the Bible as a more
reliable source than the publications of astrophysicists about this notion of stellar evolution?
132
A: Yes.
Q: Sir, I would like to look at a letter that you gave us in the document production this morning, which I think was to Harold Armstrong. I do not know if Mr. Armstrong has a PhD and whether I should call him a Dr. or not.
Is he the editor of the Creation Research Society Quarterly?
A: Yes.
Q: The letter I have reference to is from you to Harold Armstrong, dated September 20, 1979. On the last page near the bottom, I will read a couple of sentences:
"Also, I wrote to Hansen about geocentricity. His reply along with your remarks on the subject have `expanded my mind' from the constraints put upon it by my previous schooling. There are some interesting things to think about in that category." Could you tell me who the Mr. Hansen referred to was?
A: I could find out who he is. Offhand, I don't remember his first name but I know enough about him that I could provide his name.
Q: Is he an author or can you tell me
133
how it is that you know him?
A: He is, I believe, a professor of computer science in Ohio.
Q: Can you tell me how you happened to write to Mr. Hansen about geocentricity?
A: Yes. I had read somewhere that he was a spokesman for a group advocating geocentricity.
Q: Could you tell me what you understand by the term "geocentricity"?
A: Geocentricity would mean that the Earth would be at the center of the solar system.
Q: Do you recall what the reply that you received from Mr. Hansen about geocentricity was?
A: Yes. He answered some questions that I asked him about possible arguments that I thought would refute geocentricity.
Q: Were you satisfied by the refutations that he offered?
A: Not satisfied that geocentricity was in any sense the way it is, but satisfied that arguments, apparently conceivable arguments, could be given in favor of geocentricity.
Q: Do you recall what any of those arguments in favor of geocentricity are?
134
A: Offhand, no.
Q: Could you tell me what you meant by the phrase "the constraints put upon it by my previous schooling"?
A: Yes. It had been stated, I think, and is generally stated in scientific discussions or discussions of the history of science, that scientific data disproved the possibility of geocentricity.
Q: Is it your present view that scientific data does not disprove the possibility of geocentricity?
A: Correct.
Q: Sir, are you aware of what some of the scientific evidence which purports to disprove geocentricity is?
A: I believe so.
Q: Could you describe it?
A: One in which I wrote to Hansen about was Foucault Pendulum. Another one I believe is the subject referred to as Coriolis Force.
Q: Dr., are you aware of the notion of stellar parallax as an argument against geocentricity?
A: I believe I have heard that, yes.
Q: Can you tell me what you do not regard any of the scientific evidence as currently disproving
135
the possibility of geocentricity?
A: Yes. One reason would be that I have a physics text written by people who I have no reason to consider quacks, which states that geocentricity cannot be demonstrated to be superior to the Copernican view.
They are just different ways of interpreting the observations.
Q: Sir, I wonder if you are saying that the physics text that you have in mind states that geocentricity cannot be demonstrated to be superior to the Copernican view?
A: Is that what you meant to say?
Q: Did you mean to say that the text said that the Copernican view cannot be demonstrated to be superior to the geocentricity view?
A: No. The text stated that the geocentric view cannot be demonstrated to be inferior, not superior.
Q: Do you recall the name of the text or any of the authors?
A: I believe the author's name was Brancazio.
Q: Do you recall the title?
A: No, but I could produce the title, I
136
believe.
Q: Do you recall the publisher or when it was published?
A: No. It was relatively recent; within the last eight years; not before the Copernican Revolution.
Q: Do you recall the substance of the basis for the statement that geocentricity cannot be shown to be inferior to the Copernican view?
A: No, I don't really recall the reasoning for it.
MR. WOLFE Off the record (Discussion held off the record.)
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the deposition was adjourned.)
_______________________________ Hilton Fay Hinderliter
Subscribed and sworn to before me
this______day of__________________1981.
__________________________________
Notary Public
November 25, 1981 137
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
HILTON HINDERLITER MR. WOLFE 4
E X H I B I T S
PLAINTIFF'S FOR ID.
] Vita 4