How Old Is The Earth? Answers from IDC Advocates

The Kansas State Board of Education held "unofficial" hearings in 2005 to decide between the antievolution-influenced rewrite of proposed state science standards and those developed by the writing committee. They brought in over twenty "experts" in "intelligent design" creationism to testify. Attorney Pedro Irigonegray asked many of them to give their opinion of how old the earth is. Their answers are instructive.

William Harris:

Q. Sir, I have only a few questions for you. As it was stated earlier, my name is Pedro Irigonegaray, I represent the majority. You've told us a little bit about your beliefs and your opinions and how you came to those. I'd like to ask you for the record, first, can you tell us how old you believe the earth is?

A. I don't know. I think it's probably really old.

Q. How old is really old?

A. I don't really know.

Q. You have no idea how old the earth is?

A. There's theories around that the earth is 10,000ish years old. There are theories around that it is four billion years old. If it was a multiple choice test and I only had two choices and I couldn't check "I don't know," and I wanted to get credit for the question, I'd check old.

Q. I understand, sir. But in all the work you have done, in all the research that you have done, in all your experience to this day you still don't have an opinion as to how old the earth is?

A. I have an opinion, I just don't really know. My opinion is it's probably fourish billion years old.

Charles Thaxton:

Q. Sir, I have just a few questions for you. First of all, what is your opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. My opinion-- it really wouldn't matter to me if it was one hundred billion years old.

Q. That wasn't my question.

A. I don't know.

Q. My question is, sir, what is your opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. Well, I generally say, when people ask me that, it's probably between 10 or 15 billion years old.

Q. Between 10 and 15 billion years old?

A. The universe.

Q. I asked you about the earth.

A. Oh, four-and-a-half million years. [It is likely that Thaxton probably meant to say 4.5 billion years which is the is the mainstream geology age of the earth or that court reporter made an error -- editor.]

Jonathan Wells:

Q. Doctor Wells, do you have a personal opinion as to how old the earth is?

A. I think the earth is probably four-and-a-half billion or so years old. But I'll tell you this, I used to-- I would have said, a few years ago, I'm convinced it's four-and-a-half billion years old. But the truth is I have not looked at the evidence. And I have become increasingly suspicious of the evidence that is presented to me and that's why at this point I would say probably it's four-and-a-half billion years old, but I haven't looked at the evidence.

Ralph Seelke:

CHAIRMAN ABRAMS: Mr. Irigonegaray, 15 minutes.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I do believe 4.5 billion years.

MR. IRIGONEGARAY: I'm glad to hear that. We have no questions for you.

Edward Peltzer:

Q. First of all, I would like to have your opinion as to what the age of the world is.

A. The-- the best scientific evidence for this is based on the age of meteorites. This-- this was determined by Clair Patterson.

Q. Sir, I-- I'm just asking you what the age is, I'm not interested in the process right now. What is your opinion as to what the age of the world is.

A. I'm-- I'm getting to that.

Q. Just if-- please, I'm asking you, just tell me what you think the age is. I'm not interested in an explanation, I'm just interested in what you believe the age of the world is.

A. I'm-- I'm trying to do that, if you would--

MR. IRIGONEGARAY: Mr. Abrams, the question, as we agreed, is a direct question. It calls for simply an age.

Q. (BY MR. IRIGONEGARAY) If you know it, say so. If you don't, say you don't.

A. Very well. 4.596 billion years.

Russel Carlson:

Q. Sir, I-- I have a few questions that I need to ask you for the record. First of all, I would like to ask you, sir, what your opinion is as to what the age of the earth is.

A. Well, I-- I agree with the previous witness here. I'm-- I'm not-- I don't work in that area, but I don't have any problem with the idea that it's 4.5 billion years old.

John Sanford:

Q. First of all, do you have a personal opinion as to what the age of the world is?

A. I do have a personal opinion.

Q. And what is that personal opinion specifically as to the age? And I'm interested only in the age, not an explanation.

A. I believe that I was wrong in my previous belief that it's 4.5 billion years old and that it's much younger.

Q. How old is the earth, in your opinion?

A. I cannot intelligently say how old it is except it's much younger than I think widely believed.

Q. Give me your best estimate.

A. Less than 100,000 years old.

Q. Less than 10,000?

A. Conceivably.

Q. Conceivably less than 10,000?

A. Yes.

Q. Conceivably less than 5,000?

A. No.

Q. So it's somewhere between 5 and 10,000 years of age?

A. Between 5 and 100,000. But I would like to--

Q. No, I'm asking the questions.

A. Okay. You ask the questions.

Robet DiSilvestro:

Q. I have just a few questions for you, sir. And for the record, I am interested first what is the age of the world, in your opinion?

A. Well, since that's out of my area, I can't really give an expert opinion, but I haven't heard of any major arguments against the four-and-a-half billion-year-old idea, so I don't challenge that idea.

Bryan Leonard:

Q. All right. I have a few questions that I want to ask you for the record. First, what is your opinion as to what the age of the world is?

A. I really don't have an opinion.

Q. You have no opinion as to what the age of the world is?

A. Four to four point five billion years is what I teach my students.

Q. I'm asking what is your opinion as to what the age of the world is?

A. 'Um, I was asked to come out here to talk about my experiences as a high school biology teacher.

Q. I'm asking you, sir --

A. I was not under the impression that I was asked to come out here --

Q. I'm asking you --

A. -- talking about --

Q. -- sir, what is your personal opinion as to what the age of the world is?

A. Four-- four to four point five billion years is what I teach my students, sir.

Q. That's not my question. My question is, what is your personal opinion as to what the age of the world is?

A. Again, I was under the impression to come out here and talk about my professional experience --

Q. Is there a difference?

A. -- more of --

Q. Is there a difference between your personal opinion and what you teach students the age of the world is?

A. Four to four point five billion years is what I teach my students, sir.

Q. Is-- my question is, is there a difference between your personal opinion and what you teach your students?

A. Again, you're putting a spin on the question is-- you know, now I'll spin any answer, sir, to say that my opinion is irrelevant. Four to four point five billion years is what I teach my students.

Dan Ely:

Q. Welcome to Kansas. I have a few questions for the record for you. First I have a group of yes or no questions that I would like for you to answer, please. What is your opinion as to the age of the earth?

A. In light of time I would say most of the evidence that I see, I read and I understand points to an old age of the earth.

Q. And how old is that age?

A. I don't know. I just know what I read with regards to data. It looks like it's four billion years.

Q. And is that your personal opinion?

A. No. My personal opinion is I really don't know. I'm struggling.

Q. You're struggling with what the age of the earth is?

A. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. There's a lot of ways to measure the age. Meteorites is one way. There's a lot of elements used. There's a lot of assumptions can be used and those assumptions can be challenged so I don't really know.

Q. What is the range that you are instructing?

A. I think the range we heard today, somewhere between 5,000 and four billion.

Q. You-- you-- you believe the earth may be as young as 5,000 years old. Is that correct?

A. Well, we're learning that there's such a thing as junc --

Q. Sir, answer --

A. -- really has a function.

Q. Just please answer my question, sir.

A. We're learning a lot about micro --

Q. Sir?

MR. IRIGONEGARAY: Mr. Abrams, please instruct the witness to answer the question.

CHAIRMAN ABRAMS: I think --

Q. (By Mr. Irigonegaray) The question was-- and winking at him is not going to do you any good. Answer my question. Do you believe the earth may be as young as 5,000 years old?

A. It could be.

Roger DeHart:

Q. And I'm going to ask you first how old, in your opinion, is the world?

A. I'm going to answer like Dr. Sanford earlier, I would say between probably a lot younger than most people think.

Q. That doesn't say anything to me. What is your opinion in years the age of the earth?

A. I'm fine with 5,000 to 100,000.

Q. You're fine with 5,000 to 100,000?

A. Correct.

John Millam

Q. Because my time is limited I'm going to ask you first a few questions and I would like you to answer. In your opinion how old is the earth?

A. The earth I believe is 4 point 6 billion years old. The universe is 13 point 7, plus or minus.

Nancy Bryson:

Q. I have a few questions for you that I'd like to place on the record first, please. The first thing I'd like to ask you is what is your personal opinion as to what the age of the world is?

A. I'm undecided.

Q. What is your best guess?

A. I'm totally undecided.

Q. Give me your best range.

A. Anywhere from 4.5 billion years to ten thousand years.

Q. And, of course, you have reached that conclusion based on the best scientific evidence available?

A. Yes.

James Barham:

Q. Sir, I have some initial questions for the record. How old, in your opinion, is the earth?

A. Four and a half billion is the accepted view. I would accept that. I have no reason to doubt that.

Stephen C. Meyer:

Q. I have a few questions for you first that I want to establish for the record. In your opinion, your personal opinion, what is the age of the earth?

A. Do you want my personal-- why are you asking me about my personal--

Q. You're here to answer my questions. First of all, what is your personal opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. I understood I was being called as an expert witness.

Q. What is your personal opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. I'm unclear. I understand--

Q. The question is simple. What is, in your opinion, the age of the earth?

A. Well, I'm just wanting to clarify the ground rules here. I thought I was being called as an expert witness, so why are you asking me about my personal--

Q. That's not the issue. Now, please answer my question. What is your personal--

A. I would like to understand the ground rules first. Why am I being asked about--

MR. IRIGONEGARAY: Mr. Chairman, if he's not going to answer my questions, I'd ask that his testimony be stricken from the record.

A. I'm happy to answer your question. I'd like to know why you're asking about--

Q. (BY MR. IRIGONEGARAY) The "why" is not for you to determine.

MR. SISSON: Mr. Chairman, I understand Mr. Meyer's request to reflect some confusion about the ground rules, and it is quite appropriate for him to ask that the chair of the committee, namely yourself, speak to him concerning the appropriate ground rules. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN ABRAMS: Dr. Meyer, can you hear me now?

A. Yes, sir.

CHAIRMAN ABRAMS: My name is Steve Abrams, chairman of the science subcommittee. And even though these hearings have been called about the Kansas science curriculum standards and particularly how they relate to the minority report and particularly to the question of the philosophical claims and the religious claims of science and how to teach science in Kansas, we are allowing the counsel for the majority and the counsel of the minority great latitude in trying to establish their case. And Mr. Irigonegaray has elected to ask virtually every question-- every witness questions about their personal opinions about certain things. And so we have granted him that latitude, and so I would say that's where we're going.

A. You would like me to cooperate with that?

CHAIRMAN ABRAMS: You can either answer "yes," "no," or "I don't know," or whatever you want to do, but that-- yes, I'd like you to cooperate.

A. It's a transparently obvious strategy to impeach the credibility of your witnesses, but I will cooperate. So my answer to your question, Pedro, is that I-- my personal opinions and my professional opinions are the same. I think the earth is 4.6 billion years old. I think the universe is--

Q. (BY MR. IRIGONEGARAY) No, just the earth. I didn't ask you about the universe.

A. My opinion of--

Q. Mr. Meyer, please just answer my question. I'm not asking you other opinions.

MR. SISSON: I'd simply request to make a point here, ask the Chairman if I may make a point. Mr. Chairman, would you instruct the witness that there is no subpoena power here and that he is under no compulsion to answer and he would suffer no penalty if he chose to decline to answer.

CHAIRMAN ABRAMS: He can answer the questions to his extent. However, we would like you to answer them.

A. Does that mean I can say something else about the age of the earth?

CHAIRMAN ABRAMS: Mr. Irigonegaray is going to ask the questions that he thinks important and he may repeat the question. And he will ask-- my guess is it will be a yes or a no answer or some side of an answer like that. If you feel comfortable answering that, say "yes," or if you don't know, say you don't know, whatever it is. I mean, be truthful and answer however you feel comfortable answering.

A. Right. But may I say anything more about the age of the earth, then?

Q. (BY MR. IRIGONEGARAY) I'm the one asking questions here, Mr. Meyer, and all you need to do is to answer my question.

A. Okay. I think the age of the earth is 4.6 billion years old. That's both my personal and my professional opinion. I speak as someone who is trained as a geophysicist--

Q. I'm not asking you about that. I just asked you for a number, and you have given it to me.

A. Okay. That's all you want is the number?

Q. My questions are pretty clear, Mr. Meyer.

A. You're not interested in the answer, you're interested in the--

Angus Menuge:

Q. Sir, I have a few questions that I'd like to ask you for the record, please. What is your personal opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. I don't know. And that's my final answer.

Q. Do you have an opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. I'm not giving an opinion.

Q. I didn't hear you.

A. I am not giving an opinion.

Q. You don't have any personal opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. I have no opinion.

Q. Do you find that to be rather an oddity since you consider yourself an expert on all of these areas?

A. Absolutely not, because my understanding of historical sciences has led me to-- studying them from the perspective of philosophy of science has led me to believe that inference to the best explanation is much less certain than other areas of science. And so the conclusions are much more tentative and there are other competing explanations that can be provided.

Mustafa Akyol:

Q. What is your personal opinion as to what the age of the earth is?

A. Four-point-six billion years.

Michael Behe:

Q. Sir, I have a few questions for the record for you. What is your opinion as to the age of the earth?

A. I think it's what physicists, geologists say, about 4.6 billion years.