Deposition of Waine Frair
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
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REVEREND BILL McLEAN, et al., :
Plaintifffs, :
- v -: INDEX NO.
LR-C-81-322
STATE OF ARKANSAS, et al., :
Defendants. :
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Deposition of WAYNE FRAIR taken by
the plaintiffs pursuant to stipulation,
and held at the offices of Skadden, Arps,
Slate, Meagher & Flom, Esqs., 919 Third
Avenue, New York, New York 10022, on
November 25, 1981, commencing at 10:00 a.m.,
before Perry Auerbach, a Registered Pro-
fessional Reporter and Notary Public of the
State of New York.
2
A P P E A R A N C E S :
SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM, ESQS.
Attorneys for plaintiffs
919 Third Avenue
New York, New York 10022
BY: THOMAS M. LAHIFF, JR., ESQ.,
Of Counsel
Attorney General for the State of Arkansas
Justice Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
BY: DAVID WILLIAMS, ESQ.,
Deputy Attorney Gener
A L S O P R E S E N T :
ANN BLEEFELD
DR. EUGENE Gaffney,
Museum of Natural History
DR. RICHARD ZWEIFEL,
Museum of Natural History
---
2A
IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED,
by and between the attorneys for the respective
parties herein, that the sealing and filing
of the within deposition be waived, and that
such deposition may be signed and sworn to
before any officer authorized to administer
an oath, with the same force and effect as if
signed and sworn to before the officer before
whom said deposition is taken.
IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
that all objections, except as to form, are
reserved to the time of trial.
---
3
W A Y N E F R A I R , called as a witness,
having been first duly sworn by the Notary
Public, Perry Auerbach, was examined and tes-
tified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY
MR. LAHIFF:
Q Please state your name for the record.
A Wayne Frair.
Q What is your address, please?
A The King's College, Briarcliff, New
York 10510.
Q Doctor, did you bring any documents
with you today?
A I have a few (handing).
Q Are these all the documents?
A That is all I have with me.
MR. LAHIFF: I'd like to take a few
minutes to take a look at them before we get
started.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
Q Doctor, I noticed from your curriculum
vitae that you have a fair number of publications deal-
ing with the creation model, and I'd like to know if it
would be possible for us to obtain copies of these,
Frair 4
as well, because I notice in the documents you have
provides us today there was only the book, The Case For
Creation, and I'd like to see copies of your other
creation writings, as well.
A That's all right with me. I'll provide
anything you wish, I guess.
Q All right. Thank you.
A I want to cooperate.
Q How did you first hear about this case?
A I think I read it in some magazine that
the bills had been passed, and that the ACLU would be
challenging it.
Q How did it come about that you were
about to testify in the case?
A The Attorney General's office phoned
me.
Q Who at the Attorney General's office?
A A man named Tim Humphreys.
Q Exactly what did he tell you?
A He -- I think he asked if I knew about
the situation in Arkansas and would I be willing to
testify if necessary.
Q And what did you tell him?
A I said that I would consider it.
Frair 5
Q Did you contact Mr. Humphreys again?
A No.
Q Did he contact you?
A Yes.
Q And what did he say to you?
A Well, he told me that they were planning
to have a trial, and that they would like to consider
my testimony.
Q What did you tell him?
A I said I was willing to participate.
Q Did you discuss the specifics of your
testimony?
A No.
Q Did you discuss what your testimony
might be?
A No.
Q Have you discussed with anyone from the
Attorney General's office what your testimony might be?
A I talked with two of the lawyers briefly
last night.
Q And what did you talk about?
A This whole business is rather new for
me, and I'm a little bit bewildered by the whole situa-
tion, and I think that they were trying to clarify for
Frair 6
me what would be going on.
Q Did they ask you what your testimony
might be?
A They asked me a few questions.
Q What did they ask you?
A They told me that I should be honest
with the questioners, and that I should be prepared to
express my feelings.
Q Was there any discussion of the spe-
cifics of what you might testify to, either today or
at the trial?
A Well, I asked them some questions of
what might be expected of me. I think they tried to
help me be prepared.
Q What did they tell you about what might
be expected of you?
A Well, what do you mean?
Q What do you mean by that?
A This is the first time I have been
involved with something like this, and I'm concerned
that we have fairness in education, but I am not anxious
to get into any squabbles about these things. If whatever
I can do to encourage fairness, I am happy to do so.
Q I'd like to mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit
Frair 7
No. 1, the defendants' list of witnesses and point out
to you in paragraph 12, there is a reference to you and
to the fact that you will testify that, "Your findings
indicate substantial evidence supporting a limited
change model specifically and creation science generally."
(Above document marked Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 1 for identification, this date.)
Q Did you discuss anything like this with
the Attorney General or anyone from the Attorney General's
office?
A I don't remember ever saying just that.
That was written by -- who wrote that?
Q I'm not sure who wrote that.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was prepared by our
office.
Q Did you ever say anything like that to
anyone from the Attorney General's office?
A Probably said something that went along
with that. I don't remember saying those exact words.
Q Do you have any understanding of what
that statement means by a limited change model?
A Yes.
Q Could you explain what that means?
A Well, that organisms have changed to a
Frair 8
limited extent, rather than atolphylogeny. That would
include all animals.
Q Do you know what your testimony will
be at the trial?
A No.
Q Do you have any idea what you might
testify about?
A Well, I would try to answer the ques-
tions they ask.
Q Has the Attorney General ever said to
you what kinds of questions he would ask?
A That I have indicated that I would be
questioned about my stand, about my beliefs, perhaps
something about science.
MR. LAHIFF: Mr. Williams, I'd like to
have some kind of an idea what subjects or topics
this witness is going to be testifying about.
It is very unclear from our discussion
what he will be testifying about. It is very
hard to question him.
Do you have any idea at this time what
topics he will be covering during his testimony?
MR. WILLIAMS: I think our statement in
our list of witnesses is that he will discuss
Frair 9
the evidence which supports a limited changed
model specifically and the creation science
generally, and that generally is the subject
matter that he will be going into with this
witness.
He has a background in biochemetic
toxonomy, and he will be asking him questions
based on his work in the area, and the research
that he has done as it will relate to the cre-
ation science or evolution science model.
Q Doctor, could you describe what your
research has shown that would be supportive of the
creation science model?
A There's different ways of looking at
data. I don't think my findings are inconsistent with
a creation model.
Q Are your findings inconsistent with
an evolutionary model?
A I have many good friends who are evo-
lutionists who use my data appropriately, I think.
Q So you are saying then that your find-
ings are consistent with an evolutionary model?
A They can be utilized by people with
that approach.
Frair 10
Q What do you mean by the limits of the
limited change model?
A This is something that hasn't been
defined precisely.
Q Hasn't been defined precisely by whom?
A By many people that I know of.
Q Who are the many people?
A Well, those that are inclining toward
preference for a creation model.
Q How do you define the limits or what
are the limits of a limited change model to you?
A That is a very good question. These
are some of the things that I am thinking about. I
don't think that I can give a definitive answer.
Q What are you thinking about them?
A Well, I am hopeful that my research will
contribute to an understanding of the organisms I am
working on, and I hope it will be of value to all
scientists.
Q Is your research directed towards a
demonstration of the validity of the creation science
model?
MR. WILLIAMS: Are you saying is that
the sole purpose of his research?
Frair 11
Q Is that one of the purposes of your
research?
A I want to see the way things are going
to come out. I have certain presuppositions, as any
scientist has, and I want to follow the data the way
it seems to be leading.
Q Is the phrase limited change model
your description?
A Yes.
Q What do you mean by a limited change
model then?
A This is what some scientists would call
micro-evolution.
MR. LAHIFF: Can we take a break for a
few minutes.
(Short recess taken.)
BY MR. LAHIFF:
Q Are you aware of any non-creationists
who would use the term limited change model?
A There are many who would stress this
aspect of it, perhaps with different words.
Q What do you mean by stress this aspect
of it?
A To go easy on the macro-evolution and
Frair 12
to think more in terms of micro-evolution.
Q Perhaps you could help me out by explain-
ing to me exactly what the limited change model is, so
that I have an understanding.
A It is a view of life that recognizes
changes to the extent that they can be demonstrated
convincingly.
Q What do you mean by changes?
A Variation.
Q What kinds of variation?
A For instance, the production of human
races.
Q I'm sorry, could you elaborate a little
bit on your answer?
A Certainly. Certain changes have been
necessary to produce the variety seen among the races
of mankind. That is what I am talking about.
Q How does that relate to the limited
change model or how does the limited change model
explain the variations?
A The limited change model would be hesi-
tant --
MR. WILLIAMS: Excuse me. I find
it hard to concentrate when another conversation
Frair 13
is going on. Could we just go off the record
until the conversation is over?
MR. LAHIFF: All right.
A In the limited change model, there is
caution in relating one type of organism to another.
Q What do you mean by caution in relat-
ing one organism to another?
A The person operating with the limited
change model is under no compulsion to bridge gaps
between organisms.
Q Are evolutionary scientists under some
compulsion to bridge gaps?
A This has been my experience.
Q What kind of compulsion are they under?
A In my courses, we were frequently required
to fit the data into an evolutionary scheme.
Q From where does this compulsion arise?
MR. WILLIAMS: If you know. I think
the question may be calling for speculation on
the part of the witness.
MR. LAHIFF: I don't think it calls for
speculation. The witness has testified that
scientists who do not adhere to limited change
model are under some compulsion to bridge gaps,
Frair 14
and I'd like to know the course of this com-
pulsion.
A In most cases, I think it is based on
a prior acceptance of the macro-evolutionary view.
Q Do you use evolutionary ideas in your
scientific research?
A What do you mean by evolutionary ideas?
Q Do you refer to ancestors in your
research?
MR. WILLIAMS: I would object to that,
to the extent that it assumes a fact not in evi-
dence, that an ancestor is necessarily an evo-
lutionary concept.
MR. LAHIFF: Your objection is noted.
Q Could you answer the question?
A Would you repeat it?
MR. LAHIFF: Would you please repeat
the question.
(Question read by the Reporter.)
A I think in terms of ancestors for some
organisms with which I am working.
Q Do you use evolutionary terms in your
scientific research?
MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the question
Frair 15
as being ambiguous. What is an evolutionary
term?
Q What do you understand by an evolution-
ary term?
A I don't know.
Q You have no understanding of the term
evolution?
A I wouldn't say that.
MR. WILLIAMS: The problem is that evo-
lutionary term is so ambiguous as objective
that it is difficult for the witness to give
meaning to it.
If you would like to give a meaning to
it, it might assist him in trying to frame a
response to the question.
MR. LAHIFF: I'd like to have an under-
standing of the witness' understanding.
MR. WILLIAMS: Evolutionary term can
be referring to a word or can be a term of
years or anything.
Q I will ask the witness what he under-
stands the term evolution to mean.
A The term evolution popularly is used
today to refer to change, descent with modification.
Frair 16
Q Is that the only use of the term evo-
lution?
A Yes; when referring to living organisms.
Q What, to you, are the essentials of
evolution?
A Now, are you talking about what the evo-
lution view is?
Q Yes. What, to you, are the essentials
of the evolutionary model as you understand it?
A Variation, natural selection, survival
of the fittest, genetic continuity of the changes that
were produced in time.
Q What do you mean genetic continuity?
A That an organism passes to its off-
spring its genes.
Q Is relatedness of all organisms an ele-
ment of evolution?
A Now, what type of evolution are you
talking about?
Q How many types of evolution are there?
A Well, we have talked about micro-
evolution, and we have talked about macro-evolution.
Q Are there different mechanics for evo-
lution?
Frair 17
A Most evolutionists would rely on
genetic mechanisms.
Q What do you mean by genetic mechanisms?
A Things that would affect the gene pool.
Q Do you disagree with that?
A No.
Q How can the word ancestor be used in
a creationist's model?
A I think in the same sense that we com-
monly used the word ancestor in ordinary talk.
Q How do you use ancestor in ordinary talk?
A We are talking about our ancestors, our
parents, grandparents. When a lineage is well estab-
lished or appears obvious from the data.
Q Do you believe that all living organisms
are descended from a single source?
A This is the macro-evolution model. That
is not the creation model.
Q Do you accept that model?
A I have some hesitations about this.
Q What are your hesitations?
A I am not sure at this time that the data
is compelling.
Q Can you tell when evolution takes place
Frair 18
and when it doesn't?
A That is a good question. The problem
is to establish genetic continuity.
Q But can you tell when evolution takes
place and when it doesn't?
MR. WILLIAMS: Speaking to him, "you,"
in the sense of Dr. Frair personally as opposed
to anyone else in the community?
Q As opposed to scientists, evolutionists,
in general.
A When we are thinking in terms of cur-
rent extant organisms, there appears to be obvious
genetic continuity among some of these forms.
Q How would you account for this genetic
continuity?
A As part of micro-evolution.
Q Do you accept macro-evolution.
A Yes.
Q What data are you aware of that is
inconsistent with macro-evolution as you understand it?
A There seems to be considerable data
that would support a limited change model.
Q Could you describe that data for me?
A We mentioned human races. That is part
Frair 19
of a limited change model.
Q But could you explain the data? I don't
think simply observing that there are differences between
human races as a data, is inconsistent with macro-
evolution.
MR. WILLIAMS: Is that a question or was
that a statement?
MR. LAHIFF: That is a question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Could you read what he
said back.
MR. LAHIFF: Why don't I withdraw that
and ask a different question.
Q Could you identify for me, please, the
sources of the data that you believe are inconsistent
with macro-evolution?
A The problem is to establish a genetic
continuity between groups of organisms, diverse groups
of organisms.
Q I'm a non-scientist, so you'll have to
bear with me. Could you please define for me what you
mean by the term evolution?
A In a word, change.
Q Change with respect to what?
A Descent with modification.
Frair 20
Q What is the mechanism of evolution?
A There is a -- appears to be a change
in the genetic term.
Q What kind of a change in the genetic
term?
A Some kind of a modification that would
be passed to the offspring.
Q What do you mean by the term macro-
evolution?
A This is the term that refers to evolu-
tion that would link all living things on one tree.
Q Are all living things related on one
tree?
MR. WILLIAMS: On what? I didn't hear.
MR. LAHIFF: Tree.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right.
A I have some questions about that.
Q What are your questions?
A I am not sure at this time that the evi-
dence for this is compelling.
Q Is there any evidence to the contrary?
A I think there is.
Q What is the evidence to the contrary?
A The problem is establishing genetic
Frair 21
continuity between the diverse groups of organisms.
Q What is the evidence that shows that
there is no genetic continuity?
Perhaps you could define what you mean
by genetic continuity first.
A That the forms bear a relationship by
descent from one another.
Q And how do you determine the relation-
ship, that the forms are related?
A That is where the problem lies. It is
not easy to do so.
Q Whether or not it is easy or difficult
to do, is there any evidence that shows that there is
no genetic continuity?
A It seems obvious to me that some types
of turtles are related to some other types of turtles.
They are very similar structurally, live in the same
region.
Q How is that inconsistent with an evo-
lutionary model?
A This is consistent with a limited change
model.
Q Is it inconsistent with a macro-evolution-
ary model?
Frair 22
A Many scientists do not think so. I
have some reservations.
Q Which scientists, in addition to your-
self, have reservations?
A Would you like me to name some?
Q Please.
A There have been many over the years.
One who is prominently quoted today is G. I. Kerkut;
his book is Implications of Evolution.
Q Is G. I. Kerkut a creation scientist?
A Not that I know of.
Q Is he an evolutionist?
A He could be, but in his book he has made
a case for a -- well, if I can introduce a new term,
polyphyletic --
MR. WILLIAMS: Use the term that you are
comfortable with.
THE WITNESS: I am not sure if it is the
best term.
A But he is uncomfortable with a macro-
evolutionary model.
Q Does he propose an alternative evolu-
tionary model?
A It is not set forth with any rigor in
Frair 23
the book.
Q But he is not an evolutionist?
A He sees a lot of problems with this
model.
Q Whether he sees problems or not, is he
an evolutionist?
MR. WILLIAMS: If you know.
A I am not positive about that. He pre-
sents many of the problems in that book, and indicates
that -- he uses the term the gene theory of evolution
and the special theory of evolution.
The gene theory of evolution refers to
the macro; the special theory of evolution refers to
micro. But there are other books.
Q Does he accept the validity of the
limited change model?
A That would be the special theory, what
he calls the special theory.
Q But does he accept or adopt that model?
A I can't say that for sure.
Q How does the limited change model differ
from an evolutionary model?
A Well, as Kerkut indicates, the limited
change model or the special theory of evolution is well-
Frair 24
accepted and has considerable data to support it,
whereas the gene theory doesn't, because the gene
theory involves establishing a genetic continuity
between groups, diverse groups.
Q Is your limited change model the same
as Duane Gish's limited change model?
A Could you tell me what his is?
Q Do you have an understanding of what
his limited change model is?
A I am not sure.
Q Do you believe in the idea of originally
created kinds as described in Genesis ?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object. That question
assumes a fact not in evidence, that the --
first of all, Genesis talks about originally
created all kinds.
Q Does Genesis talk about originally or
specially created kinds?
MR. WILLIAMS: I assume here you are
asking him this question in his capacity as a
science professional?
MR. LAHIFF: Yes.
A Repeat the question, please.
MR. LAHIFF: Could you repeat the question.
Frair 25
(Question read.)
MR. WILLIAMS: If you know.
A Well, we are switching gears a little
bit here. We have been talking about scientific mate-
rial, now you are coming over to what the Bible says.
Q I know I am switching gears. I am per-
mitted to do that. In fact, I can switch back if I
want. That is really the glory of taking a deposition.
A When we are talking about the scientific
picture, I said how I felt about the overall scheme.
If you are talking about my philosophical view of the
Bible, I think the Bible -- the Bible does say "kinds,"
does talk about kinds in the book of Genesis. And it
won't be inconsistent with a limited change model to
think that way about Genesis.
Q Do you believe that the Bible is
literally true?
A What do you mean by literally true?
Q What do you mean by literally true?
A You are the one that asked the question.
Q I would like your understanding. That
is the purpose of a deposition, is to get your under-
standing.
MR. WILLIAMS: No. You are using a term;
Frair 26
do you believe the Bible is literally true,
which may have more than one meaning.
What Dr. Frair is trying to say is
simply that that is an ambiguous term and I
will object on that ground.
MR. LAHIFF: I am perfectly willing to
have Dr. Frair define what he understands liter-
ally true to mean and to answer the question
according to his definition.
MR. WILLIAMS: If you want to ask him
what literally true means, that is fine.
Q All right. What do you understand by
the phrase literally true?
MR. WILLIAMS: If it means anything to
you.
A I do feel that there's -- that it is
worth following the teachings of the Bible, that have
been official influence.
Q My question was your understanding of
the phrase literally true.
A My own view of this would be that one
can accept the teachings of the Bible literally or as
they appear to be.
Q You still haven't defined what you mean
Frair 27
by literally.
A Well, they are correct as they appear
to be, how's that?
Q Do you believe that the Biblical account
of Genesis is an accurate historical picture of crea-
tion?
A I don't look at -- I don't read Genesis
and understand it as though I was reading a scientific
textbook. I think there is a difference there.
Q But does it present an accurate his-
torical portrayal of description of creation?
A I think basically, basically it does.
Q Does Genesis talk about kinds?
A It says they are reproduced after their
kind.
Q Do you believe that turtles are a kind
as described in Genesis?
A That is what I am working on.
Q But do you believe it?
MR. WILLIAMS: Are you asking him as a
science professional or as a matter of his per-
sonal religious faith?
MR. LAHIFF: I will ask first as a matter
of personal belief.
Frair 28
MR. WILLIAMS: Personal belief?
MR. LAHIFF: Personal belief.
MR. WILLIAMS: As in personal religious
belief?
MR. LAHIFF: Personal religious belief.
A I can't -- I don't think I can answer
that question.
Q Why can't you answer the question?
A Because I don't have enough information
at this stage. I am still learning.
Q As a scientist, do you believe it?
A Well, now you are saying as a scientist
do I believe that the turtles fit the kinds in Genesis?
Q Yes. That is exactly what I am asking.
A That -- I don't seem to make sense out
of that, because as a scientist, I am trying to under-
stand relations among turtles, and possibly other
organisms.
Q Are turtles related to any other
organisms?
MR. WILLIAMS: What was the question
again?
Q Are turtles related to any other organisms?
A I know who asked that question.
Frair 29
Q I asked the question.
MR. WILLIAMS: I mean it is ambig-
uous to me. What do you mean by related?
Q Okay. We will go through this every
time if we have to. What do you understand by the
term related?
MR. WILLIAMS: I mean they are both
animals or what.
A The intent of the question os to find
out if I believe that turtles and other organisms would
participate in descent with modification; is that it?
Q Don't try and figure out the intent of
my question, just answer it.
A That is what you are asking me; is it
or isn't it?
Q Are turtles related to amniotes?
A What are amniotes?
Q You tell me what amniotes are.
A Reptiles, birds and mammals are.
Q Are turtles related to amniotes?
A These are organisms that have embryonic
membranes in the developmental process. They differ
from other organisms.
Q But are they related?
Frair 30
MR. WILLIAMS: I am going to object on
the ground related is ambiguous. Related can
mean -- I can give you 2,000 definitions.
MR. LAHIFF: Maybe I do mean that they
are cousins.
Q Are they related as you understand the
term related to be?
A If you are talking about genetic con-
tinuity, we are right back to our question of limited
change and virtually unlimited change or micro-evolu-
tion or macro-evolution, gene theory and special theory,
and I don't feel that my own personal data on the basis
of my experience, I can answer that.
Q What does the word related mean in your
scientific papers?
A I have used the word. It would mean
that there was a genetic continuity among those organisms
involved.
Q Do other scientists believe that there
is a genetic continuity between turtles and other amniotes
A Most of them do.
Q Which scientists do not?
A Creationists would tend to question this.
Q Why would a creationist tend to question
Frair 31
it?
A Because they are not convinced that there
is a genetic continuity here.
Q But is there any data that shows that
there is not a genetic continuity?
A Well, I am still considering this.
Q But do you have any data to support your
considerations or your suppositions?
A Dr. Gaffney has produced a lot of infor-
mation that is very important in my considerations, and
I am looking at my own research, as well. I am still
in the process of evaluating this.
Q Is the data that Dr. Gaffney has pro-
duced inconsistent with evolution?
A He is a very respectable scientist and
I have a very --
Q But is it inconsistent with evolution?
A His philosophy is evolution.
Q So you are saying that the data is not
inconsistent with evolution?
A He certainly does not feel that it is.
Q Is his data inconsistent with a relation-
ship between turtles and other amniotes?
MR. WILLIAMS: He is here. Why don't
Frair 32
you ask him.
MR. LAHIFF: Dr. Gaffney is not here
to testify. Dr. Frair is.
MR. WILLIAMS: If you know. You can
answer to the extent of your knowledge. Obviously
Dr. Gaffney is here and if they would like to
ask him personally, he has been consulting with
them, but you can give answers to the extent
that you have knowledge and that you feel con-
fident that you can swear by.
A I have a high personal regard for Dr.
Gaffney.
Q I am not asking you about your high
personal regard for anyone.
A I just want to say that he, at this
stage, is --
Q Dr. Frair --
MR. WILLIAMS: Wait a second. He had
not finished the answer to the question.
A He is endeavoring to relate the turtles
to other amniotes.
Q Is the data that Dr. Gaffney has written
about inconsistent with evolution?
A I said I am not really prepared to
Frair 33
evaluate that in detail at this stage. I think I am
going to have to back off on that.
Q Why can't you give me an answer?
A Because I am not a paleontologist. He
is. He can evaluate his work.
Q Do you have any expertise at all in
paleontology?
A I have had one course in geology, but
I have had not much experience in paleontology.
Q What do you understand by the term crea-
tion model?
A Creation model would stress limited
change, micro-evolution, special theory.
Q Let's look at Act 590, which I would
like to have marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2.
(Above document marked Plaintiffs'
Exhibit 2 for identification, this date.)
Q And I would direct your attention to
section 4, part A, which defines creation science as
the sudden creation of the universe, energy and life
from nothing.
MR. WILLIAMS: Do you have a copy of
that to look at?
MR. LAHIFF: Sure.
Frair 34
A Do you want me to comment on that state-
ment?
Q Do you personally believe that?
MR. WILLIAMS: Personal belief?
MR. LAHIFF: Personal belief, I am going
to ask him about his belief as a scientist.
MR. WILLIAMS: Wait a second. What now?
You said do you personally believe that as a
scientist.
MR. LAHIFF: I said then I am going to
ask him about his belief as a scientist.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right.
A Sudden creation of the universe, energy
and life from nothing. Now, I consider this --
Q Perhaps I should ask you, have you ever
seen this act before?
A Yes, I have.
Q Do you realize that this is the act
that you are testifying or that you will testify in
favor of?
A I do.
Q Has that been explained to you?
A Yes.
Q Have you seen this statute before today?
Frair 35
A Yes.
Q When did you first see this statute?
A Oh, several weeks ago.
Q How did you obtain a copy of the
statute?
A Somebody sent me one.
Q Do you know who sent a copy to you?
A I think it was an organization in
Arkansas.
Q Has the Attorney General ever dis-
cussed the statute with you or anyone from the Attorney
General's office?
A Yes.
Q What was the discussion?
A In fact, they gave me a copy of this.
I mean, I had -- they sent me a copy fairly recently.
I haven't spent a lot of time studying it, but -- what
was that? What did you say?
Q Maybe I will change tact again. Could
you read to yourself, please, the definition 4A?
A Read for myself?
Q Read to yourself. I'd like to ask you
a few questions about it.
(Pause.)
Frair 36
Q Is the definition in 4A consistent
with your limited change model?
A I don't think I could personally --
well, let's see -- there are some aspects of this that
I feel that I understand better than others.
Q What aspects of that do you understand
better than others?
A Number 3 deals with the limited change
model. That aspect of it I feel I am more conversant
with than others.
Q Are there any parts of that definition
that you disagree with?
A There are some aspects of it that I
am less certain of than other aspects of it.
Q What aspects of it are you less certain
of?
A Well, I am a biologist, and I don't
feel that I am qualified to speak with any degree of
authority on the matters that deal with the geological
aspects of this.
Q Do you believe that there is any scien-
tific evidence that supports 4A3, "changes only within
fixed limits of originally created kinds of plants and
animals"?
Frair 37
A This is the idea of genetic continuity,
and I think there's evidence for genetic continuity
within certain groups of organisms.
Q But is there any evidence of originally
created kinds of plants and animals?
A In my understanding, the kinds would be
separated by lack of genetic continuity.
Q Do you know if that phrase, "changes
only within fixed limits of originally created kinds of
plants and animals," is based on the Bible?
MR. WILLIAMS: You mean where it came
from in the act?
MR. LAHIFF: No. I know where it came
from in the act.
Q Do you believe that it is based on the
Biblical account of creation?
A It is not Biblical wording.
Q It is not Biblical wording, but is it
based on the description in Genesis?
MR. WILLIAMS: I will object to that.
I don't think he is qualified to answer that
question.
Q Do you read the Bible?
A Yes.
Frair 38
Q How often do you read the Bible?
A I usually read it each day.
Q Have you read Genesis?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me then whether or not the
phrase or the sentence "changes only within fixed limits
of originally created kinds of plants and animals" is
based on Genesis?
MR. WILLIAMS: As it is used in this
act, I don't think he is competent to testify
where it came from in this act. There is no
showing that he drafted it.
MR. LAHIFF: I am not asking him where
it came from in the act. I am asking him if
That is consistent with the description in
Genesis.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is a different ques-
tion. I have no problem with that.
A I think it could be considered consistent
with what Genesis says. Genesis says the organisms repro-
duced after their kinds.
Q Do you know what a kind is?
A That is a good question.
Q That is why I asked it.
Frair 39
A I am not prepared at this time to give
a good definition of a kind.
Q Why not?
A Because I don't think we have enough
evidence to --
Q Is there any evidence?
A Yes.
Q What is that evidence?
A The lack of genetic continuity between
groups.
Q Is the Bible a piece of evidence?
MR. WILLIAMS: Scientific evidence?
Q Piece of scientific evidence?
A No.
Q Was all kinds created during creation
week?
A Are you asking me what the Bible says?
Q I am asking you what the Bible says.
A The Bible has organisms created during
creation week.
Q Have new kinds arisen since creation
week?
MR. WILLIAMS: You are asking him again
as to his personal beliefs as opposed to what
Frair 40
scientific data tells you?
MR. LAHIFF: Yes.
A I don't know. I know we have had
extinction.
Q What evidence would you seek in order
to determine what a kind is?
A One way to do this would be to estab-
lish genetic continuity by breeding experiments.
Q Is there any other method?
A There may be reproductive isolation
among organisms which still belong to the same kind.
And you would determine this by the overall morpho-
logical similarities.
Q Have you ever undertaken any research
to determine what a kind is?
A I think my research could be understood
within the kinds concept, and I have thought about this
and I have some --
Q What is a kind?
A What do you mean what is a kind? In
terms of what? In terms of science?
Q In terms of science, what is a kind?
A In terms of the act, I think the act
is saying that the one kind would not have a genetic
Frair 41
continuity with another kind. That is why I hesitate.
That is the way that I understand it.
Q The act doesn't say that?
A This is the way I understand it.
Q The act talks about originally created
kinds?
A Yes.
Q What is an originally created kind?
A Well, that would be the way the organism
was when it started.
Q Could you identify for me an originally
created kind?
A Very good question. Man.
Q Are there any other originally created
kinds?
A This is something that is being con-
sidered by many at this time.
Q Is there any evidence?
A I think as of -- as tentative operating
model you would think in terms of organisms that were
morphologically and physiologically diverse.
Q What is there about man that leads you
to believe that he is an originally created kind?
A There are many features of man that
Frair 42
set him apart as unique.
Q What features?
A Primarily his ability to symbolize,
speaking, writing.
Q What is an originally created kind?
A It is a group of organisms not genetic-
ally related by genetic continuity to other organisms.
Q How did man come about? Where did man
come from?
A I think I would have some hesitation
about relating him to the living apes.
Q But where did he come from?
A Well, he originated by creation, accord-
ing to the creation model.
Q Do you believe that that is how man
came about?
A That is my working assumption at this
time.
Q Do you have any evidence for the crea-
tion of man?
A I am not an anthropologist.
Q All right. Let's turn to turtles then.
Do you consider yourself to be an expert in the field
of turtles?
Frair 43
A On some aspects of turtles.
Q What aspects of turtles?
A Biochemical types.
Q Have you ever talked in any of your
scientific papers about turtles and ancestry among
different types of turtles?
A Yes.
Q Is a turtle an originally created kind
within the meaning of the act?
A I am not prepared to say that with a
strong degree of authority. I am working on that now,
thinking about it.
Q But do you have any evidence at all
that would lead you to believe that a turtle was an
originally created kind?
A Turtles are diverse from other organisms.
They have features that distinguish them from other
reptiles.
Q But is there any evidence that they are
an originally created kind?
A If there is a lack of genetic continuity
between them and other things, then there would be.
Q What is the definition of a species?
A Are you asking for scientific definition
Frair 44
of species?
Q Yes, a scientific definition of species.
A Species often are defined scientifically
as members of -- similar members of interbreeding popu-
lations.
Q Why can there be no evolution between
kinds?
A Well, this is what the creation model
postulates; that there isn't.
Q But is there any evidence to support
that?
A Well, the problem of establishing a
genetic continuity between diverse groups. That is
the problem we face; so that macro-evolutionists face.
Q Is there evidence that is supportive
of macro-evolution?
A There are a lot of excellent scientists,
including Dr. Zweifel and Dr. Gaffney, who feel there
is, and I respect that.
Q But is there any evidence that shows
that there is no macro-evolution?
A Yes.
Q What is that evidence?
A The problem associated with establishing
Frair 45
genetic continuity between diverse groups.
Q What evidence would you look for to
establish that originally created kinds, in fact,
exist.
A Many who have favored this approach
have felt that the very fact that organisms could be
grouped as separate from others is evidence of distinct-
ness among the various groups.
Q Do you consider the Biblical account of
creation and the evolution model to be in conflict?
A I have some good friends who believe
the Biblical account and also believe the macro-
evolution model, and I can respect that.
Q So you don't believe that there is any
necessary conflict?
A That's right.
Q Is your belief in the Bible one reason
for not accepting the evolution model?
A Indirectly.
Q Could you explain that?
A Because I believe the Bible I have
studied -- I have read some of the literature that is
not of great concern to many other people.
Q I don't understand what you mean by your
Frair 46
answer.
A Let me put it this way, because there
may be -- you are asking for my personal view now?
Q Yes.
A Personal, philosophical view. I am
speaking as an individual here. Because I have the
personal view of the Bible that I do, and because there
historically has been some problems in this region, I
have been compelled to read into the matter in a way
that I otherwise would not have been compelled to read.
And I had to make a decision on the basis of what I
found.
Q Do you know of any intermediate forms,
either fossil or living, between major kinds?
A No.
Q Do you know what an archaeopteryx is?
A Yes.
Q Do you consider that to be a transitional
form?
A It has been put forward as a transitional
form by those particularly who believe --
Q Do you believe that it is a transitional
form?
A I have some hesitation about accepting
Frair 47
it.
Q Why isn't it a transitional form?
A I am not certain at this stage. It
could be a separate kind.
Q If it could be a separate kind, what
characteristics are there of either a fossil or a
living organism that lead you to say, ah, that is a
separately created kind?
A Good question. Archaeopteryx has simi-
larities to dinosaurs and birds. I am aware of this.
Q Doesn't it have teeth and a bony tail
as a reptile does?
A It has teeth.
Q Didn't it have feathers, wings, and a
bill like a bird?
A Yes.
Q Then why isn't it a transitional form?
It seems to have characteristics both of birds and of
reptiles.
A That is true.
Q Don't all organisms retain some primi-
tive features?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that as being
overbroad. I can't understand the question.
Frair 48
Q Do you understand the question?
A I think I understand the context which
Dr. Gaffney is asking it.
Q I am asking the question.
A Same thing as you asking the question.
Q I am asking the questions.
MR. WILLIAMS: We can maintain that
illusion if you'd like.
Q There is absolutely no illusion. I am
asking the questions. Unfortunately Dr. Faair is not
answering them.
A I don't mean to be disrespectful.
MR. WILLIAMS: I really don't understand
the question, and I think that while --
DR. GAFFNEY: Tell you what --
MR. LAHIFF: Let's go off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. LAHIFF: Let's go back on the rec-
ord. May I have the question again.
(Question read.)
Q Do you understand the question?
A Yes.
Q Can you answer the question?
A Yes.
Frair 49
Q Please answer it.
A They do.
Q Are you familiar with the ichthyostega?
A No.
Q If a student in an Arkansas school were
to ask you what an originally created kind is, how
would you explain that?
A I would say that a kind would consti-
tute a group of organisms showing genetic discontinuity
with other groups or with other kinds.
Q Is that a species, that you have just
described?
A Not necessarily.
Q Do different kinds of animals have simi-
lar features as embryos that are lost in adults?
MR. WILLIAMS: Could you repeat the ques-
tion; I don't think I heard you.
Q Do different kinds of animals have simi-
lar features as embryos that are lost in adults?
A There are cases of this, yes.
Q Is this a breakdown between kinds?
A Not necessarily.
Q Why not necessarily?
A Because it could indicate some organs
Frair 50
which were lost in time.
Q What do you mean by lost in time?
A That they no longer show up in the adult
condition, whereas previously, previous adults had them.
Q What is the source of your belief that
there are originally created kinds?
A Because of the serious problems in
establishing genetic continuity between diverse groups.
Q Is it true that the creationist critique
of the details of evolution is based primarily on facts
and issues raised by evolutionary scientists, them-
selves?
A Repeat this.
MR. LAHIFF: Could you repeat the ques-
tion.
(Question read.)
A That certainly is an important aspect
of the situation.
Q Are creationists doing any original
research that you are aware of?
A Yes.
Q What research?
A I know creationists in a variety of
fields.
