Deposition of Ariel Roth
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
REVEREND BILL MC LEAN, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) No. LR-C-81-322
)
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION, et )
al., )
)
Defendants. )
_________________________________)
DEPOSITION OF
DR. ARIEL ROTH
Monday, November 16, 1981
Reported by:
JOHN F. KEATING, C.S.R.,
Certificate No. 254, and
CAROLINE ANDERSON, C.S.R.,
Certificate No. 193
2
I N D E X
Page
DEPOSITION OF DR. ARIEL ROTH
EXAMINATION BY MR. WOLFE 4
- - -
EXHIBITS
Number
1 Vita, Ariel A. Roth 5
2 Excerpt from Origins, Volume 6, No. 2,
1979, pages 57, 58 and 88 through 95 89
- - -
3
BE IT REMEMBERED that, pursuant to Notice of Taking
Deposition, and on Monday, November 16, 1981, commencing
at the hour of 9:55 o'clock a.m. thereof, at the offices
of Brobeck, Phleger & Harrison, One Market Plaza, San
Francisco, before us, JOHN F. KEATING and CAROLINE
ANDERSON, Certified Shorthand Reporters and Notaries
Public in and for the State of California, personally
appeared
DR. ARIEL ROTH,
called as a witness herein, who, being by me first duly
sworn, was thereupon examined and testified as
hereinafter set forth.
- - -
SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM, 919 Third
Avenue, New York, New York 10022, represented by STEPHEN
G. WOLFE, Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf
of the plaintiffs.
STEVE CLARK, Attorney General, State of Arkansas,
Justice Building, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201,
represented by DAVID WILLIAMS, Deputy Attorney General,
appeared as counsel on behalf of the defendants.
- - -
4
MR. WOLFE: We'll begin with the stipulation only
that the sealing of the deposition is waived; the
deposition need not be signed by the witness before the
Notary who took the deposition.
Plaintiffs have requested that the signed deposition
be returned within five days of its receipt by the
witness, and our position would be that in view of the
short time remaining before trial, we are entitled to
use the deposition as though it had been signed if it
cannot be returned in that time.
MR. WILLIAMS: The defendants will not stipulate
to do it within five days. We will, of course,, offer to
try to have it done as expeditiously as possible and
hope we can do it within that time period.
MR. WOLFE: Off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
- - -
DR. ARIEL ROTH,
being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. WOLFE:
MR. WOLFE: Please state your name and address.
A. The name is Ariel Roth; the address is ****
****** **** ****, *********, ********** *****.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Wolfe, before we go any further,
I want to state for the record, we are here today
voluntarily appearing, producing Dr. Roth for this
deposition, and we are glad to do it to accommodate
the plaintiffs in this fashion.
5
We were asked to begin at 9:00 o'clock, but due to
the telephone conference call we were unable to, and
Dr. Roth, as well as Dr. Coffin in the other
deposition, have to leave at 4:00 o'clock to catch a
plane.
MR. WOLFE: It is understood that the deposition
must end at 4:00 p.m. today in order to accommodate
Dr. Roth's travel schedule.
We would hope that it will be, of course, concluded
by that time.
If it proves not to be, we expect to continue it to
some later date fairly soon, in the light of the trial
date.
I'll ask the reporter to mark a document headed
"Vita, Ariel A. Roth" as Roth Deposition 1 for
identification.
[Document entitled "Vita, Ariel A.
Roth" was marked Exhibit No. 1
for identification.]
MR. WOLFE: Q. Dr. Roth, I'm handing you a copy
that was marked as Exhibit No. 1 to your deposition,
and I'll ask you if you recognize it.
A. Yes.
Q. What is it, sir?
A. It is my vita.
Q. Did you provide this document to the Attorney
General of Arkansas?
A. Right.
6
Q. Do you recall when that was?
A. I guess about two or three weeks ago.
Q. Sir, can you tell me when you had your first
contact with the representative of the Attorney General
of Arkansas for this case?
A. Just about that time.
Q. And what contact was that, sir?
A. It was a telephone call.
Q. Was the call to you from someone in the
Attorney General's office?
A. Yes.
It was Tim Humphries who called me.
Q. Do you know just when that was, sir?
A. About the middle of October, the latter part
of October, in there.
I don't have a record of the phone call.
Q. Do you recall the substance of your
conversation with Mr. Humphries on that occasion of the
first contact?
A. He was wondering if I would be willing to
help in connection with this court case.
Q. Did Mr. Humphries tell you how he had
received your name?
A. He mentioned that, I believe, Wendell Bird
had mentioned my name to him.
Q. Did Mr. Humphries say how he happened to
receive your name from Mr. Bird?
A. Yes.
7
Q. Have you heard since that time how Mr. Bird
happened to give your name to the Arkansas Attorney
General?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall approximately how long it was
after your first conversation with Mr. Humphries that
you supplied your curriculum vitae to the Attorney
General?
A. I would say about one day, I think.
There were several phone calls.
I think he asked for it the first day, and I sent
it to him at that time.
Q. Did you agree to appear as a witness in this
action on the occasion of your first phone call with
Mr. Humphries?
A. No.
Q. Sir, when did you agree to appear as a witness?
A. He called me about a week or two later.
Q. How many conversations had you had with
representatives of the Arkansas Attorney General in that
period between your first contact with Mr. Humphries and
your agreement to appear as a witness?
A. It seems to me there were three. I would
guess three.
Q. Were they all with Mr. Humphries?
A. Yes.
Well, that was -- a subsequent one was with the
secretary, but I think they were all with Mr. Humphries.
8
Q. Dr. Roth, I'll hand you now a copy of a
document which is defendants' first and second list of
witnesses in this case, and I'm opening it to a page in
which you are listed as a witness.
I'll ask you to look at the numbered paragraph 13,
which consists of your name and address and a short
description of your expected testimony.
[Short recess.]
MR. WOLFE: Q. Dr. Roth, have you ever seen the
document that I gave you, the list of witnesses, before?
A. No.
Q. Do you know how the Arkansas Attorney General
came into possession of the information about your
expected testimony that's on that list?
A. Over the telephone.
Q. Do you know when you gave that information to
the Arkansas Attorney General?
A. During one of those first three phone calls
that we referred to.
Q. Sir, I'll point out to you that witness list
was dated October 26th and ask you if that enables you
to be more certain about when you might have given the
information to the Arkansas Attorney General.
A. Before that.
Q. Sir, I'll show you another document, which is
plaintiffs' first set of interrogatories in this action,
and I'll ask you if you have ever seen that before.
MR. WILLIAMS: We will stipulate he hasn't, unless
9
he got it somewhere else other than from us.
THE WITNESS: I have not seen this before.
MR. WOLFE: Q. Dr. Roth, if you will read that page,
you will see that it is a request for the defendants in
this action to provide certain information as to expert
witnesses who are expected to testify at trial.
Have you ever had any contact with the Arkansas
Attorney General in which they have asked you to provide
them with the information listed there?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am going to object.
That's ambiguous, because there are several items
of information.
If you could be more specific?
MR. WOLFE: Q. Have you had any contact with the
Arkansas Attorney General subsequent to the phone call
in which you said you gave him the information that
appears on the list of witnesses in which they asked you
for any of the information that's requested in the
interrogatories?
A. No, I don't think so.
Q. Dr. Roth, have you had any contact with the
Arkansas Attorney General's Office since the time of
the telephone call in which you provided -- the
telephone call for the list of witnesses in which you
discussed your expected testimony at trial?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that, sir?
A. Last week, as travel arrangements were coming
10
near, were being arranged.
Q. Do you recall what day that was, sir?
A. Several days ago, I would guess, Monday,
Thursday and Friday, but it could be Wednesday, also.
Q. Sir, has anyone from the Arkansas Attorney
General's office ever asked you to send them copies of
your writings on science or Creation Science?
A. No.
MR. WOLFE: Mr. Williams, we would like to register
again our objection to your refusal to answer the
interrogatories and produce the documents requested in
the document request, particularly in light of the fact
that the subject apparently was discussed with Mr. Roth
at least once in preparation of the list of witnesses,
and one or more times last week since then, and we still
have been unable to acquire any sort of information,
being provided any information in response to
interrogatories.
MR. WILLIAMS: For the record, I will respond to
that.
We have provided his curriculum vitae to the
plaintiffs.
Further, we have provided the general subject matter
of his testimony and the list of witnesses, and he has
brought some documents with him, if you care to look at
them.
That's entirely up to you.
MR. WOLFE: First, do I understand you to be
11
willing to stipulate that his expected testimony will
be no broader than what is -- what was provided to us on
the list of witnesses on October 26th?
A. I would say that he will testify on that
subject.
There are other possible areas of testimony, as well,
and I'll tell you, he will talk, perhaps about
catastrophism. He may also talk about some general
principles of science and how scientific models arise.
We also, in answer to the objection and response to
it -- this is not a typical case, Mr. Wolfe, where you
have a specific set of facts like in a medical malpractice
case.
Until such time as our discovery is complete in
taking the depositions of plaintiffs' witnesses, we did
not know and we cannot know exactly what areas we will
want to cover with our witnesses.
MR. WOLFE: I see. Could you explain to me, sir,
how it is that you have become aware that Dr. Roth might
testify about catastrophism and the way in which certain
scientific principles arise without seeing fit to
provide that information to us in response to the
interrogatories or in any other fashion?
MR. WILLIAMS: Because we discussed it last night.
MR. WOLFE: Certainly, in addition to our objection
about the failure to respond to the discovery requests
in the interrogatories and document request, we would
certainly take the position that no witness is, could
12
properly be offering testimony on the subject as to which
we had no opportunity to make discovery, no notice as
to the possibility of such testimony.
MR. WILLIAMS: You are here to take this discovery
deposition. That's the purpose of the deposition.
MR. WOLFE: Yes, it is.
The second matter is to documents which Dr. Roth
may have brought with him today. I would very much like
to see any such documents, assuming you are willing to
make them available.
THE WITNESS: Listed in my vita are a number of
publications.
I have brought, I believe, an almost or an all
complete set of all my publications.
MR. WOLFE: All right, sir.
Q. Are there any other documents that you brought
with you?
A. The journal which I edit, Origins, has a
number of my publications in it in addition to this.
I have brought some correspondence, as requested,
and other statements. It may at times relate to the
issue. I have brought those along, statements made to
the State of California, to Oregon and so on regarding
this particular issue, which I thought were pertintent
to this deposition.
MR. WOLFE: Off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. WOLFE: Back on the record.
13
Q. Dr. Roth, have you brought any other
materials that deal with statements you have made or
contacts you have had with the Arkansas Attorney General
concerning this case or other correspondence or
discussions you may have had concerning the subject of
Scientific Creation?
A. Not dealing with this case.
Now, which way do you want it?
Q. My question has two parts: contacts concerning
this case or any other material that you brought along,
that is, correspondence that you have had on the subject
of Scientific Creation.
A. I have had some correspondence with
evolutionists and creationists, and I brought back, which
I could obtain, with me.
Q. Are you willing to have me make copies of
those materials, as well?
A. Sure.
MR. WOLFE: We'll break for a few moments while I
arrange to have copies made of the documents which
Dr. Roth has provided to me just now.
Sir, I'll return these copies of Origins to you.
[Short recess.]
MR. WOLFE: Q. Dr. Roth, turning your attention
back to your vita, Exhibit 1 to the deposition, could
you tell me what your major area of study was at Pacific
Union College.
A. Biology.
14
Q. And in your graduate studies at the University
of Michigan?
A. For the Master's degree, it was either biology
or zoology. For the Ph.D. it was zoology.
Q. Sir, have you had any postdoctoral education
other than what is listed on your vita?
A. Not that I can think of.
Q. Would you tell me the subject of your Ph.D.
dissertation.
A. It was gametogenesis, g-a-m-e-t-o-g-e-n-e-s-i-s.
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. WOLFE: Q. Dr. Roth, I apologize for the
interruption. I believe you were giving us the title of
your Ph.D. dissertation.
A. All right.
We got to the word "gametogenesis," g-a-m-e-t-o-g-e-n-
e-s-i-s, in the final generation of Schistosomatium,
capital S-c-h-i-s-t-o-s-o-m-a-t-i-u-m, dotthitti, small
d-o-t-t-h-i-t-t-i.
Q. Sir, had you any subspecialization within
zoology within your Ph.D. training?
A. Parasitology, p-a-r-a-s-i-t-o-l-o-g-y.
Q. Would you describe the training in radiation
biology that is mentioned on your vita?
A. It was a number of courses designed to give
me knowledge of how to use radioactive tracers in
biological research.
Q. How many courses were there, sir?
15
A. It has been a long time.
I think three or four.
Q. Were they ordinary graduate level courses at
the university?
A. Right.
Q. Were those courses undertaken at a regular
session or at summer school?
A. Regular session.
Q. Would you describe the training in geology and
mathematics at Riverside mentioned on your vita?
A. Mathematics, including a year of calculus.
The geology amounted to about three years of geology
courses.
By this I mean a three-year sequence, not three years
of full-time courses.
In other words, we would be talking about 12 to 16
courses.
Q. Were those courses at the graduate level?
A. No. Those were mostly -- well, I think all
were undergraduate or advanced undergraduate or lower
division undergraduate.
Q. Did you take a degree pursuant to either of
these?
A. No.
Q. Are the three degrees listed on your vita the
only academic degrees that you have, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Were any of those degrees granted with honors?
16
A. No, I don't think so, no.
Q. Dr. Roth, does the section of your vita headed
"Employment" describe all of the teaching experience that
you have had?
A. I think so.
Q. Sir, what did you teach as a teaching
assistant at the University of Michigan?
A. I was an assistant in the basic course in
zoology.
Q. And what did you teach at Pacific Union
College during the period you were employed there?
A. Probably, I would guess, 10 to 20 different
courses in biology.
Q. Were they graduate or undergraduate courses?
A. Those were all undergraduate courses.
Q. Does Pacific Union College grant graduate
degrees?
A. They do now.
Q. Did they at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they grant graduate degrees in biology?
A. Yes.
Q. But the courses that you taught were all
undergraduate?
A. To the best of my knowledge.
Q. Sir, what were your responsibilities as a
research assistant at Loma Linda University in 1957 and
1958?
17
A. I was studying the intermediate host of a
parasitic worm.
Q. And what parasitic worm was that, sir?
A. A schistosome, s-c-h-i-s-t-o-s-o-m-e.
Q. Sir, what were your responsibilities as a
professor of biology and chairman of the department at
Andrews University?
A. I taught courses and directed the program of
the department, as well as research in the department.
Q. Where is Andrews University, Dr. Roth?
A. It's in Berrien, B-e-r-r-i-e-n, Springs,
Michigan.
Q. Were the courses that you taught undergraduate
or graduate level courses.
A. At Andrews they were all undergraduate
courses.
Q. Did Andrews grant graduate degrees in biology
at the time you were there?
A. No.
Q. Would you describe your responsibilities as a
professor of biology and chairman of the department at
Loma Linda University from 1963 to 1971?
A. The first part of that period I was chairman
of the graduate program because that was the only program
that Loma Linda had at that time, a graduate program in
biology where I taught graduate courses and directed
research and, of course, directed the program.
Later on Loma Linda University was tied in with an
18
undergraduate program, and I was chairman of both the
graduate and the undergraduate program at the latter part
of that period.
Q. Have your responsibilities at Loma Linda been
different during the time that you are associated with
Geoscience Research Institute?
A. Yes. My work is directed towards the
Geoscience Institute now.
Q. Would you describe that program and your
responsibilities in it?
A. I am the director of that program. The
responsibilities, of course, involve directing the research
and the other duties of that institute which deal with
studying the controversy between evolution and creation,
and presenting the results of our study.
Q. Does the Geoscience Research Institute grant
degrees?
A. No.
Q. Does it engage in any research other than on
the controversy between Creation Science and Evolution
Science that you have just described?
A. I would have to qualify that.
It depends on what you mean on this issue. It's hard
to say. Some questions are related to this but may not
be directly involved in it.
All knowledge is good, and we are looking for truth.
Q. Would you describe the purpose or the aim of
the Geoscience Research Institute.
19
Is it aimed primarily at this body of knowledge of
creation, of evolution?
A. The aim of the institute, and this I will
state as my personal concern, is to find truth from a
broader context than is traditional in academic pursuits.
In other words, it is a multiple-disciplinary
approach.
Q. And is the subject matter of the institute's
research primarily Creation Science?
A. I would say truth.
Q. Are there any substantive areas of
concentration within the overall body of truth that the
Research Institute concentrates in?
A. Oh, I would say definitely the question of
origins.
Q. Could you tell me when the Geoscience Research
Institute was founded.
A. In 1958.
Q. Does it have a statement of purpose or the
like that you are aware of?
A. There is a statement that was voted several
years ago of purpose.
Q. Do you recall the substance of that
statement of purpose?
A. Essentially that the institute has a broad
approach to the issue. It is seeking truth on the basis
of studying a multiplicity of areas.
Q. Have you had any teaching responsibility since
20
the time you have been associated with the Geoscience
Research Institute?
A. I teach a course every other year for Loma
Linda University.
Q. What is that?
A. Paleontological, p-a-l-e-o-n-t-o-l-o-g-i-c-a-l,
interpretations.
Q. Would you describe the subject matter, if you
can, briefly of your course.
A. It's an analysis of the fossil record and
various interpretations that are put thereon.
Q. Do you have textbooks for the course?
A. The last time I taught we used Dott and Baten,
D-o-t-t and B-a-t-e-n.
It's a history of the earth or earth history.
I'm sorry, I cannot give you the exact title.
It has the Dott and Baten textbook as a base.
Now I add supplemental materials to this.
Q. Dr. Roth, have you studied at any colleges
other than Pacific Union College, the University of
Michigan and the two University of California campuses
listed on your vita?
A. I audited a typing course once at Columbian
Union college in 1945.
Q. Are there any others?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did you write a thesis for your Master's
degree at the University of Michigan?
21
A. No.
Q. Was your Ph.D. thesis published?
A. Only in abstract form.
Q. Sir, does the listing on your vita of grants
represent all of the grant applications that you have
accepted?
A. I think so.
Q. Do you recall of any grant applications you
have made that were not funded?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you describe them for me, sir.
A. I applied to the National Institute of Health
for a grant to study the metabolism, m-e-t-a-b-o-l-i-s-m,
of schistosomes, s-c-h-i-s-t-o-s-o-m-e-s, and was turned
down.
Q. When was that, sir?
A. In the early '60s, middle '60s, I would say.
Q. Do you have any knowledge why the grant
application was rejected?
A. One of the reviewers stated that he didn't
think the project was feasible.
Q. Do you have any knowledge about why it was
regarded as not feasible by that reviewer?
A. I'm afraid not, because a graduate student of
mine completed the project within two years after that.
Q. Have you had any other grant applications
which were not funded?
A. Not that I can recall right now.
22
Q. Are you a tenured professor at Loma Linda?
A. I don't think I am anymore.
I have been.
Since I am with the Geoscience Research Institute,
I'm not sure. I don't think I am.
Q. Have you been tenured at any institutions other
than Loma Linda?
A. Andrews University.
Q. Have you ever been denied tenure at any
institutions where you taught?
A. No.
Q. Dr. Roth, is Andrews University accredited by
any accrediting body?
A. By the North Central Association.
Q. Was it accredited at the time you taught
there?
A. Yes.
Q. And is Loma Linda accredited?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know by whom?
A. The Western Association of Secondary Schools
and Colleges.
Q. And has it been accredited throughout the
time you have been employed there?
A. Yes.
Q. Does Andrews University have any affiliation
with a religious institution?
A. It is a Seventh Day Adventist institution.
23
Q. Does Loma Linda University have any
affiliation with a religious institution?
A. Likewise, it is a Seventh Day Adventist
Institution.
Q. Does Pacific Union College have any
affiliation with a religious institution?
A. It likewise is a Seventh Day Adventist
institution.
Q. Could you describe the current areas of
research that you are engaged in?
A. The main area of research I am dealing with
now is the area of coral reefs. I deal with both the
metabolism of present coral organisms and I am also
studying the structure of present and past coral reefs.
Q. How long have you been engaged in research in
those two areas?
A. About 11 years.
Q. And what was your research area prior to the
beginning of your research on coral reefs?
A. Schistosome worms.
Q. And had that been your area of research
interest from the time of your Ph.D. study?
A. Right.
Q. Can you tell me what precipitated your taking
up coral reef research and leaving off the research on
schistosomes?
A. Several factors.
I have always been interested in marine biology,
24
and this was definitely a factor that influenced my
decision, because I wanted to get into the ocean and
study marine organisms.
Secondly, I felt that coral reefs had significant
implications in terms of philosophical implications
regarding past life.
Q. Could you explain the philosophical
implications that you just mentioned?
A. Part of the question relates to the authenticity
of ancient reefs and part of it to the rate of reformation.
Q. Will you explain to me what you mean by the
authenticity of ancient reefs.
A. In the fossil record we have structures that
are sometimes referred to as reefs. Are they real reefs
or not?
Q. Were there any reasons independent of your
interest in the coral reef questions about why you left
off your research in schistosomes?
A. Just those I mentioned.
Q. Sir, have you ever had any training or
education in marine biology?
A. I have taken course work in marine biology.
Q. When was that, sir?
A. Pacific Union College, I would guess, about
1947.
Q. Was that undergraduate course work, sir?
A. That was undergraduate work.
Q. Have you done any graduate work in marine
25
biology?
A. You mean specific course work in marine
biology?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Not that was related to marine biology, per
se.
I might state, the course work that I took at
Berkeley, for instance, helmed me in doing research in
marine biology.
Q. That was the course work you took in the use
of radioactive tracers in biological research?
A. Right.
I should point out that the training I received at
the University of Michigan was in vertebrate zoology,
which deals more with marine organisms, although my
specialization is in parasitology, but marine parasites
are not uncommon. There is an overlap between the
specialties.
Q. Were any of the parasites that you studied
in your Ph.D. research or subsequently marine parasites?
A. No. That is not those I did intensive research
on.
Q. What are the hosts of the schistosomes, sir?
A. It varies and depends on which schistosome
you are dealing with.
The host of the one I was dealing with most of the
time in my research was man and a snail.
The host of the one I did my doctoral research on
26
was a meadow vole, v-o-l-e, meadow vole.
Q. And the snail that you referred to, was that
a freshwater snail?
A. Yes.
Q. Sir, is it correct that the snail is an
intermediate host of schistosomes or the ones that you
studied and that man is the primary host or the one that
you were primarily interested in?
A. That's right.
Q. Is most of your study directed to man or to
the intermediate host?
A. Both, not man, the worm, the intermediate host.
Q. Dr. Roth, have you had any paid employment
other than what is listed on your vita?
Let me limit that to the time since your Ph.D. was
granted.
A. Only in terms of honoraria of one type or
another for writing an article or giving a talk.
Q. Sir, are you paid as the editor of Origins?
A. This is part of my duties as director of the
Geoscience Research Institute.
Q. Is Origins then a publication of the Geo.
Research Institute?
A. Right.
Q. When was Origins founded?
A. In 1974.
Q. Dr. Roth, did you have a research requirement
or responsibility when you were at Andrews University?
27
That is, were you expected to carry on research
while you were there?
A. No, but I did it.
Q. What were the responsibilities that you were
required to carry out in your paid employment there?
A. Chairing the department and teaching a limited
number of courses.
Q. Did you have any responsibility to publish
while you were at Andrews University?
A. It was encouraged.
Q. Did you have any research responsibility in the
biology department at Loma Linda?
A. There the concern for publication was much
more serious because that was a graduate program I was
dealing with, and you have no business in a graduate
program without doing research.
Q. Was it expected that professors at Loma Linda
in biology, in order to be tenured, would do research and
publish?
A. Very definitely.
Q. And do you have research and writing
responsibilities at the Geoscience Research Institute?
A. Very strongly encouraged.
It is similar to the academic community that
essentially, if you don't publish, you cannot be
considered a researcher.
Q. I see.
Sir, are you required to edit the journal, Origins,
28
as director of the Research Institute?
A. It's not required, but at present I do it.
Q. Who was your predecessor director of the
Research Institute?
A. Robert Brown, B-r-o-w-n.
Q. How long was he the director or the institute?
A. About eight years.
Q. Sir, do you receive any payment as the
editor of Origins separate from your salary as director
of the research institute?
A. No.
Q. Do you receive any payment as chairman of the
Biblical Research Institute of Science Council?
A. No.
Q. Were you paid as a consultant on creation to
the California State Board of Education?
A. No.
Q. Dr. Roth, have you ever been fired or
dismissed from an academic position?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever been subjected to academic
discipline at any institution?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever been the subject of any
discipline or sanction by any professional group of which
you are a member?
A. No.
Q. Dr. Roth, have you ever attended any symposia
29
or seminars in your area of research that are not listed
on your vita?
A. Lots of them.
Q. Are you able to estimate how many on an annual
basis or something of the sort?
A. Well, I make it a point to attend one or two
professional meetings every year.
Q. Could you tell me what journals in marine
biology you subscribe to?
A. Personally?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I do not subscribe to any personally.
Q. Are there any that are received by the
Geoscience Research Institute that you read regularly?
A. By Loma Linda University.
Q. All right, sir.
A. Marine biology is the main one.
Q. Are there others?
A. Not that I read regularly.
Q. Sir, referring to the professional societies
that are listed on your vita, will you describe to me
what the Society of Sigma Chi is?
A. This is an honorary scientific research
society.
Q. Do you know approximately how many members it
has?
A. I'm afraid not.
Certainly in the thousands.
30
Q. What are the requirements for membership?
A. You have to be a competent researcher.
Q. Can anyone join who wishes to and pays the
dues, or is it elective?
A. Elective.
Q. Are you aware of the criteria that are used
for election?
A. Participation in research and promise of future
research.
Q. Can you tell me when you were elected to
membership?
A. In about 1950.
Q. At that time were you doing your graduate work
at the University of Michigan?
A. Right.
Q. Is it customary that one is sponsored for
membership by someone else already a member?
A. Yes, is part of the requirement, and it has
to go through a committee, also.
Q. Do you know by whom you were sponsored for
membership?
A. I believe it was my major professor at the
University of Michigan.
Q. And who was that, sir?
A. Dr. Arthur Woodhead, W-o-o-d-h-e-a-d.
Q. Dr. Roth, could you describe the American
Association for the Advancement of Science for me?
A. It is an association that has several
31
purposes.
One, to bring together the American scientific
community and, secondly, to publish the journal, Science,
which is a journal dealing with a variety of scientific
subjects, mainly the biological and chemical sciences,
not so much the physical sciences.
Q. What are the criteria for membership in the
American association?
A. I believe just application.
Q. Do you know how many members it has,
approximately?
A. I'm afraid not.
Again, in the thousands.
Q. Sir, have you ever held an office in the
American Association?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever received any award from the
American Association?
A. No.
Q. Does the American Association have any
meetings at which papers are presented?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many each year?
A. They have one annual meeting a year, and then
they have subsections that meet between the annual
meetings, geographical subsections.
Q. Have you ever presented a paper at a meeting
of the association or a geographical subsection?
32
A. No.
Q. Are they listed in your list of publications?
A. Yes.
Q. Have any of those papers ever been published;
have any of those papers that you have presented at
meetings been published?
A. When you present a paper at a subsection it
is published in an abstract form.
Q. Returning for a moment to the Sigma Chi
Society, does that society publish a journal?
A. Yes
Q. Can you tell me what it is?
A. The American Scientist.
Q. Have you ever had any papers published in the
American Scientist?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever held an office in the Sigma Chi
Society?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever presented any papers at a
meeting of that society?
A. No.
The society does not have a general open research
paper-type of journal. This is more items of broad
interest, and their meetings, per se, are mostly
executive meetings, not general research.
Even though it is a research society, the meetings
are not concerned with research papers.
33
Q. Sir, as to the American Association for the
Advancement of Science, are there membership categories
within the association that are honorary or elective?
A. I cannot answer that question right now.
Q. Do you know where I might find that out?
Is it in their bylaws or the magazine, Science, that
you know of?
A. At least in the magazine, Science, you could
fine the address of the association, and one could write
to them and find out what categories of membership they
sponsor.
Q. Can you tell me about the membership criteria
and purposes of the Geological Society of America?
A. As I recall, you have to be sponsored into
the society by two members of the society. It might be
one, but I think it is two.
Q. Do you recall when you became a member of the
Geological Society?
A. Not exactly. Somewhere in the late '60s or
early '70s.
Q. Do you know by whom you were sponsored for
that society?
A. I do not remember that.
Q. Have you ever been an officer of the Geological
Society?
A. No.
Q. Doctor, are you aware of whether the
Geological Society has any honorary or elective category
34
of membership?
A. Yes, I think so. I think they call them
fellows, f-e-l-l-o-w-s.
Q. Are you a fellow of the society?
A. No.
Q. Could you tell me when you became a member of
the American Association for the Advancement of Science?
A. I would guess the first time was in the '50s.
Q. Did your membership then lapse for some
period?
A. I wouldn't be surprised.
Q. Can you tell me the membership criteria and the
purpose of the Society of Economic Paleontologists and
Minerologists?
A. Again, I think the membership is a matter of
sponsorship from another member.
The purpose of the society is to, one, publish
information dealing with paleontology and sedimentology.
Another purpose is to conduct field trips to areas
of geological significance.
Q. Do you know how many members there are in
this society?
A. I'm afraid not.
Again, I would say in the thousands.
Q. Do you know when you became a member?
A. In the '70s.
Q. Do you know whether there is an elective or
honorary category of membership in this society?
35
A. I don't know of such.
Q. Can you describe the purposes and the
membership criteria of the Western Society of
Naturalists?
A. I believe membership is on the basis of
interest.
Its purpose is to bring together for meetings
members in the western part of the United States
interested in biology.
It tends to deal with the biology of the Pacific as
a whole, whether it be marine biology or terrestrial
biology.
Q. Do you recall when you became a member of the
Western Society?
A. In the '70s.
Q. Have you ever been a member of -- I'm sorry,
an officer of the Western Society or the Society of
Economic Paleontologists?
A. No.
Q. Could you describe the membership criteria
of the American Association of Petroleum Geologists?
A. To be a full member you need to be a
practicing petroleum geologist.
For an associate member you just need the
sponsorship of one member -- not necessarily one member
but the sponsorship preferably of a member.
Q. Do you recall when you became a member of the
Association of Petroleum Geologists?
36
A. In the '70s, I guess, early '70s.
Q. Have you ever been an officer of that
association?
A. No.
Q. Sir, have you ever been denied membership in
any professional association in which you sought
membership?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever terminated your membership in
any professional society other than the membership you
said of, perhaps, the American Association for the
Advancement of Science?
A. I used to be a member of the American
Microscopal Society and a member of the American Society
of Parasitologists.
Q. Could you tell me why you are no longer a
member of those two groups?
A. When my research interests shifted to coral
reefs, their membership was no longer as valuable to
me.
Q. Dr. Roth, do you hold any adjunct teaching
positions or do you teach in any seminars other than
those that are reflected on your vita?
A. Not as a permanent -- I give lectures around,
but not adjunct positions, no.
Q. I see.
Sir, are you aware of an institution called the
Creation Research Society?
37
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a member?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever been a member?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of the Institute for Creation
Research?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a member of that institute?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever been?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of the Creation Science Research
Center?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a member of that Research Center?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever been?
A. No.
Q. Have you heard of the Bible Science
Association?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a member of that association?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever been a member of that
association?
A. No.
Q. Have you heard of a group called The Citizens
38
for Fairness in Education?
A. I probably have.
It doesn't ring a bell with me right now, but the
name sounds familiar enough that I suspect I have.
Q. I take it that then you are not a member of
the group.
A. I am not a member.
Q. Have you heard of the Citizens for Balanced
Education as to Origin?
A. It sounds familiar again, but I am not a
member.
Q. Sir, returning to your vita for a moment, it
states that you are chairman of the Biblical Research
Institute Science Council and have been since 1971.
A. Correct.
Q. Could you describe the Biblical Research
Institute for me, please.
A. The Biblical Research Institute is an
institute sponsored by the Seventh Day Adventist Church
for study in biblical research.
Q. What are the institute's membership criteria?
A. These are selected members, and I am not
aware of what criteria is employed to select the
members.
Q. Are you a member of the institute?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. When did you become a member?
A. Last year.
39
Q. That's 1980?
A. 1980.
Q. Did you make an application or seek membership?
A. No. I was asked.
Q. By whom were you asked?
A. By the secretary of the General Conference of
Seventh Day Adventists.
Q. Could you describe for me what the Science
Council for Biblical Research Institute is?
A. The Science Council is part of the Biblical
Research Institute, and it is that part which deals with
the relationship of science to the Bible.
Q. Are all the members of the Science Council
also members of the Biblical Research Institute?
A. No.
Q. How did you come to be a member of the Science
Council?
A. I was asked.
Q. And that was in 1971?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall by whom you were asked?
A. Again, it would have been the secretary of
the General Conference.
This is the official channel.
Q. Does the Biblical Research Institute or the
Science Council have a statement of purpose or a
membership oath or bylaws that you have seen?
A. Not that I know of.
40
Q. Are you aware of the purpose of the Biblical
Research Institute?
A. To do research in biblical subjects.
Q. Is there any more specific purpose than that
that you know of?
A. Not that I have seen defined.
Q. Sir, referring to last year when I believe
you said that the secretary of the General Conference
of Seventh Day Adventists had asked you to become a
member of the Biblical Research Institute, can you give
me the name of that person?
A. Thompson, Ralph W. Thompson, I think.
Q. Do you recall what he said to you in asking
you to join?
A. It was a form letter, an assignment to a
committee.
Q. Do you know if you still have a copy of that
letter?
A. Probably somewhere in my files.
Q. I would request, if possible, you would look
to see if you have a copy of that and produce it to us
through Mr. Williams, subject to his acknowledgement
that it is relevant and we are entitled to it.
Do you recall the substance of the letter beyond
what you have told me already?
A. No. It's just a form letter. It's a form.
It is not even a letter.
As I recall, it is just a form that "you have been
41
assigned" to such and such a committee, check space so
and so with the chairmanship.
Q. So that you say it is not that you were
invited to membership but that you were assigned to the
committee by this Mr. Thompson?
A. Well, I was invited to be a member.
Q. I wasn't certain that I understood.
A. I'm making a difference between being
assigned and invited. I have the privilege of refusing.
Q. And I believe you said you had joined the
Science Council in 1971 pursuant to -- was that a similar
sort of invitation or assignment?
A. As far as I recall, exactly the same thing.
Q. Have you ever received any others from the
secretary of the General Conference?
A. Sure.
Q. Do you recall how many in the last dozen
years?
A. Oh, maybe two or three others.
Q. Have you ever declined any of these
invitations?
A. Not on a permanent basis, no.
Q. Have you ever declined any on any basis other
than permanent?
A. I have had time conflicts with some of the
assignments.
Q. Dr. Roth, are you a member of any political
party other than the Republican or the Democratic party?
42
A, No.
Q. Are you a member of the Moral Majority?
A. No.
Q. Are you a member of any Right-to-Live groups?
A. No.
Q. Were you among the list of persons who applied
to intervene in this suit in July?
MR. WILLIAMS: I think the record will reflect
that he was not.
MR. WOLFE: Thank you.
Q. Sir, are you a member of a church?
A. Of a church? Yes.
Q. What church is that?
A. The Seventh Day Adventists.
Q. When did you become a member?
A. About 1937, '38.
Q. Sir, have you been baptized in that church?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. At that time.
MR. WILLIAMS: Just for the record, Mr. Wolfe, I
would like to object to the question going to his
religious background, unless some direct showing can be
made that there has been any compromising of the
science by the religious beliefs.
We are reserving that.
MR. WOLFE: I would say that we agree that the only
relevance that religion might have to the case is any
43
showing that it has detracted in any way from the
scientific objectivity; and the reason for the inquiry
is to determine whether or not that may be the case.
MR. WILLIAMS: Correct.
MR. WOLFE: Q. Sir, have you ever held any office
in that church?
MR. WILLIAMS: You can go ahead and answer the
question.
We have objected and we have reserved the right to
raise the relevancy question at the time of trial or at
any time that this matter should try to be introduced,
or this testimony.
THE WITNESS: I have been a deacon in the church
and a church elder.
MR. WOLFE: Q. How long have you been a deacon,
sir?
A. I just have to guess.
On and off, maybe 15 years.
Q. And how long have you been an elder?
A. Six years.
Q. Do you attend church services regularly, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you say how often, on an annual basis,
approximately?
A. Every week.
Q. Do you belong to any groups within the church?
MR. WILLIAMS: You mean formal groups by that?
MR. WOLFE: Yes.
44
Q. Bible study groups, fellowship groups.
A. Not that I know of, no.
Q. Sir, do you consider yourself a
fundamentalist in religion?
A. You will have to define the term for me.
Q. Well, sir, I am not concerned with my
definition but rather your opinion of your own views.
Would you consider yourself a fundamentalist,
however you want to define it?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to the question as being
ambiguous.
MR. WOLFE: Very well, the objection is noted.
Q. You may answer.
A. I did not get your last statement.
Q. Mr. Williams' objection is on the record, and
you may answer.
A. I come back to the statement I made earlier,
and that is, I'll have to have the thing defined as to
what you mean; what is a fundamentalist?
Q. Sir, I think perhaps I haven't made myself
clear.
I'm not inquiring about whether you consider
yourself a fundamentalist based on my definition or some
other, but whether you would regard yourself as a
fundamentalist by whatever definition you have.
That is, my inquiry is about your opinion of the
matter.
MR. WILLIAMS: Again, just for the record, I want
45
to object.
The problem is, when you use the term
"fundamentalist," particularly in the abstract, he may
have something else in his mind and you may have
something different, so I think in the interest of
clarity, if you can segregate the criteria by which you
are measuring fundamentalism, I think it will facilitate
the deposition.
MR. WOLFE: I certainly am not making myself clear.
Q. Let me try once more.
I do not care about my own criteria, sir; I care
only about yours.
Let me put the first question.
Could you define for me your understanding of a
person who is a fundamentalist as to religion; and the
second question would be, do you consider yourself to be
one, given your definition?
A. I believe, as the term is being used now,
such as the implications of the Moral Majority, this
type of thing, I would not qualify as a fundamentalist.
If you want to say that is what a fundamentalist
is, I am not.
Q. Sir, can you tell me what you understand to
be the meaning of fundamentalism in religion?
A. I think -- no. I have to go look it up in
the dictionary.
I am not a theologian.
Q. So you have no understanding?
46
A. Of the term? I don't have a good definition in
my mind, no.
Q. Do you consider yourself a biblical literalist,
sir?
A. No.
Q. Do you have a personal religious advisor or
counselor?
A. No.
Q. Have you an understanding of the term
"reborn Christian"?
MR. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
MR. WOLFE: Q. Have you an understanding of the
term "reborn Christian"?
A. I think I know what that means.
Q. Sir, given the understanding that you have,
would you consider yourself a reborn Christian?
A. I think so, if you use that term loosely.
Q. Well, sir, how would you use the term "reborn"
and "born-again Christian"?
A. Well, I think some individuals feel that a
reborn Christian is a person who has had a certain
dramatic experience.
Others would feel it is a committed Christian.
I qualify more in the second category than on the
first.
Q. Could you explain to me your understanding of
a person as a committed Christian?
A. It is a person who believes that the ideals
47
that Christ set up are a sound guide for life.
Q. Sir, have you ever done evangelical or
conversion work in the church?
A. Define "evangelical."
Q. Essentially, spreading the gospel, converting
those who are not believers in your church to such a
belief.
A. No.
Correction on that. I have talked to people about
my religion. I don't know if you call that
evangelizing. But nothing public, nothing in public.
Q. Sir, have you ever read the Bible?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what edition or versions you have
read?
A. Quite a number of different versions.
Q. Can you tell me those that you recall?
A. Oh, King James, Standard Revised Version,
New English Bible, Phillips, Living Bible.
Q. About how often or when have you read the
Bible, these versions?
A. I have not read all of those versions, but I
have read from those versions.
Q. How often do you read the Bible?
A. Oh, several times a week.
Q. Do you as a marine biologist consult the
Bible at all?
A. No.
48
Q. Do you ever employ the Bible in your work?
MR. WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the
question.
MR. WOLFE: Q. Do you ever employ the Bible in
your work?
A. As a marine biologist?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I am not aware that the Bible says very much
about marine biology.
Q. I take it that your answer is that you do not
consult the Bible in your work as a marine biologist?
A. I don't think I ever have, no.
Q. Dr. Roth, do you believe that the Bible is
inerrant or infallible?
A. No.
Q. Do you believe that the Bible is literally
true?
A. No.
MR. WILLIAMS: That question has been asked and
answered.
I object, also.
MR. WOLFE: Well, I think perhaps it hasn't been
exactly, but the record, in any case, will be what it
is.
Q. Sir, does the Bible predict future events?
A. Certainly.
Q. Can you tell me which events?
49
A. In the Old Testament it predicted that Christ
would be crucified.
Q. Are you aware of any biblical predictions as
to the future that have not yet come to pass?
A. It talks about the second coming of Christ.
Q. Are you aware of any others?
A. Events that would precede this.
Q. Would you regard the Bible as a source of a
code of conduct for living?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you refer to the Bible as a source of
scientific learning at all?
A. It gives some scientific data.
Q. Could you explain to me what scientific data
the Bible gives?
A. It refers, for instance, to the structure of
the temple being such and such a size, and this is
measurable data.
Q. Has the Bible ever been an inspiration to
research that you have conducted?
A. I think it has given me some ideas, yes.
Q. Could you give me any instances?
A. The work on coral, for instance.
One gets new ideas about it by looking at, say,
the Bible.
Q. Could you give me an example of such ideas
that you may have derived from looking at the Bible?
A. Just in the general plant, not in the
50
scientific research, per se; just general ideas that
you can --
The Bible gives you a greater breadth of
possibilities.
I can get these ideas from other places. You can't
blame those on the Bible.
Q. I am not sure I understood your last sentence.
A. In cultural anthropology, for instance, you
can get ideas of different past histories for life on
earth. These can suggest different ideas to you as
you approach the analysis of coral reefs.
Q. Are you able to give any specific examples?
A. Well, the Gilgamesh Epic refers to certain
catastrophies in the past, or when I go look at certain
limestone units, I may say, "Well, maybe this epic was
correct, that there were some catastrophies in the past,"
and when I go to the Geological Society of American,
like I did three weeks ago, and hear about certain
catastrophies, I say, "Maybe Gilgamesh was correct."
Q. Has the Bible ever suggested any specific
method of investigation to you?
A. Not specific; science is too specialized.
Q. Any general methods that have been
suggested to you by the Bible?
A. Not on scientific; I would say just
interpretation.
Q. Would you say that the Bible has ever
suggested possible solutions to you for questions that
